Water Heaters - No Hot Water for Christmas

Our hot water went north for Christmas Eve and Christmas...if only Santa had left us a little coal to heat it with instead!

Hot water went 6 weeks ago. Short hot showers. I replaced the lower thermostat and 1500W element. Flushed tank and replaced anode at the same time. It worked wonders. Then 5,6 weeks later hot water disappears completely. Breaker keeps going. I hit the reset on tank top thermostat, and reset the 20 amp breaker. After 3 days, breaker goes every 3 minutes. Its now xmas eve and company has just arrived. :( Boxing day 9 AM Store Opening: new 1500W 240 V element {to replace the old 2250W the other guy has stuck in the top}, and brand new top thermostat 3000W 208-240VAC . Voila! Then the breaker starts blowing every 3 minutes after resetting. SO I go replace that one. We test and make sure its alone and isolated on that breaker. All clear. We now have hot water again-except it only lasts for 5 minutes again. So I run down and bye yet ANOTHER lower thermostat, and install it. Result: same 5 minute hot shower. Its still cold to the touch at the lower part of the tank. My buddy comes by with his multimeter. There are no shorts between the breaker and the tank. There is 119 Volts showing going into the top thermo from the breaker, going from the thermo to the top element, and going from the top thermo to the lower element. All at the same time. I thought the top one heated first, then when it hit set temperature, it closed the top switch and opened the circuit to the lower element/thermo? I even turned the temp setting on the top thermostat way down when it was hot, thinking it would turn the lower one on but it just shows constant 199-120 volt readings both at the same time to both elements. Am I misunderstanding how this 2 element system works or did the store guy sell my the wrong type or something. I'm quite perplexed to say the least! :wall: Does anyone have ANY ideas other than bye a new tank? Ive poured almost $250 into parts never mind the gas and time. Ive got to be pretty close to solving the problem. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
I kept all the old parts, and even photographed the original wiring so as to not bugger up the rewiring or re-installations.
Everything is the same to a T.


Thanks in advance, Astroturkey

You should be getting 220-240 volts across the two hot leads, or 120 on each to ground. Have you considered changing out the 30 amp breaker supplying the power? They do go bad.

I get ruffly 120 V from one lead to the ground on the tank. The 20 amp breaker was replaced on boxing day and hasn't blown since. The 2x1500wW elemnts calculate to a 12.5 amp load, which should's be just fine. But isn't one element only supposed to be on at one time? I wish I had this information because it would explain or prove out the problem a little further. I'm getting 120 volts off of each element. They are both running at the same time. Even the wiring diagram on the back of the thermostat package uses the term in its wiring diagram: "non-simultaneous". So this would indicate to me that ive got my wiring wrong, or ive got the wrong kind of thermostat. I have the original diagram from the back of the hotwatertank cover, and I took a photo of the old thermostat while it was wired up. I have checked and rechecked the new one I put in and discovered one slight difference in the design of the thermostat. But I have also correctly followed the numbering of the wires. If I cant get this figured out i will post 4 pictures of the diagrams and pre/post thermostat pictures and wiring.

Spoke with an electrician on the phone. I have 11ohms resistance on the bottom element thats not working & 19.5 on the top working element. Was told to try replacing the the lower element. He said I probably cooked it with the breaker burn out problem. hmmm..... can you say " Ka-CHINGGGGGGGGGG " ???
:D

Water heaters usually are wired with 10-3 and have a 30 amp breaker. You said you were getting 120 volts from one leg to ground. How about the other leg? How about across the two legs? Is this a mobile home? What is the volume of the water heater? Each element works out to 12.5 amps, so multiply that by two and you get 25 amps, requiring a 30 amp breaker.

Thanks for your reply Larry, I appreciate your time & effort.
Yes we live in a trailer. It's a 40 Gallon WH. It is a 2 element canadian wired non-continuous system, which means it only runs one element at a time which is why the load is OK on the breaker. The new breaker hasn't tripped once since putting it in.
I took my multimeter to the hardware store last night and me and the sales person went threw my long tail step by step. We tested a 1500W element brand new at the store and its readings are the same as the one in the tank. I was confusing my measurements and didnt know the difference between resistance and resistance under load, thus the 2 different readings. My elements are fine it seems. There is only one thing left that explains the problem according to the sales guy. It's the cold water dip tube. He said if its broken off it will cause the top thermo and element to run continuously, never letting the lower element turn on and heat the lower half of the tank.
The tank is maybe 10 years old or even more and when I replaced the bottom element, the element was broken and twisted and had hard water chunks on it. I had to spin it all around to try to bend and break the deposits off just to get it out. He thinks this might have been when the cold water tube may have been knocked off. I'm about to go check and see if the tube is still in one piece, if I can even get it out it may be welded in with cruddy deposits.
I got a little education concerning the new tank-less systems while I was there but not sure we can justify the $3000 + water softening system we will need to deal with our cattle pond quality local water system. But thats another story...

Sometimes we ask questions out of the ordinary to glean information on the set up. The Canadian hook up was a curve ball, however. And, yes, if the cold water tube is broken, the incoming water never reaches the bottom of the tank as it was designed. To be honest, a tank with 10 years of mileage on it, is on borrowed time, and all the money you are pouring into it could buy a new one. I know you didn't realize it could cost this much, but hindsight...... I would deep six this unit and pop for a new heater, solving the problems all around. Scavenge the parts you put in and keep them for future use.

Thanks Larry, good ole hindsight eh? Aint that the usual? I just finished throwng a webpage together with pics n diagrams, but I hear what your saying. Its extremely embarressing to say I cant afford a tank, thus the attempt at repairs :( The cold water tube checks out just fine, so thats not the problem either. For whats its worth all points with wires show 117-120 volts when grounded to the tank. For what its worth my photos and specs are at http://mcwhosting.com/HWT/. Im also going on what the Rona sales guy gave me for thermostat replacement parts. When I compare the old and new thermostats, I see one little difference that might explain things. Check the diagram on the new thermo package that I posted. It shows canadian and american diagrams. The thermostat he gave me looks more like the american diagram than the canadian one. The difference is one copper plate that joins the #4 connector on the upper limiter to the #3 connector on the double throw thermostat section. My old one has that copper connecting strip, but my new one doesnt. If I believe the diagram that came with the package and not the salesman, Ive got an american version one and not a canadian. But I dont know if theres even any difference in how they work? Any final thoughts before I fire up the coleman kettle before bathing?

Check along the sides ( I can't see it) to see if there is a jumper molded in between the limit switch and the thermostat body. If there is no jumper, then you got a good ole USA model.

So far so good, fingers crossed. I wired it for the american diagram and the lower element and tank are now heating. Problem solved I hope, I'll be a lot more comfortable after a day or two of hot water and no breaker switch going off.

Ive got a question or 2 now in the name of lessons that we might learn from my situation.

1) What is the difference between American and Canadian Thermostats and design?

2) Are we not supposed to use Canadian safety approved components that conform to our electrical codes?

3) Is my home insurance going to cover different country equipment?

Thanks again for your help Larry, I sure appreciate it! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

1) Canadian thermostats are in French. Ours are in English. No, really, it appears the Canadian thermostats are wired in series, where the USA versions are parallel, where they will heat at the same time. 2) I should think Canadian parts should be used in Canadian appliances. I am sure codes would dictate this. 3) May want to give a call on this. Glad to help and hope it all goes well!