Carpentry and Woodworking - Gotta ? about installing crown molding

I'm just a homeowner and have not done crowns before, but I have installed some trim etc. I'd like to install some crown molding in a couple of rooms I have, and I also have a compound miter saw to make the cuts. Would it be better to fit the miters in teh corners of cope? I don't have a nailer either, which I'm sure would make this a much easier job, but don't know if I would need one.

I've done some coping, but it's been a while ago. Would it be a good idea to buy that coping jig I saw at HD? Is it standard practice to run a nailer strip under the crown to nail to...or just hit the joists where ever they are? Some say it's a little more trouble but then you don't have any problems attaching the molding either.

Are there inexpensive nailers that are NOT air compressor powered? I have a little compressor I use for tires, etc, but not enough to power a nailer, I don't think, and I really don't want to go to the expense of buying all that for possibly a one time use. Thanks.

Whether you miter corners or cope corners is up to you. Coping corners is not too difficult, and can often result in a better fit, because if the corner is not exactly a 90, a good cope will look better than a miter that has not been adjusted for the out of square corner. But a bad cope will look just as bad as a bad miter. Some people just can't get the knack of coping and they are probably better of sticking with miters. A perfect cope may still have a gap and appear loose if both pieces of crown are not sitting at the proper angle on the wall. Sometimes you may have to shim the back side of one piece to bring them together or tap (roll) the bottom of both pieces of crown up, or shim the tops of both down to close the gap and get the perfect joint. But that goes for miters as well. It's just that with a coped joint, it's usually easier to figure out what you need to do to close the gap. Once you start changing angles on a miter saw (to something that's not a 45 miter, not 0 bevel), the average person starts getting confused.

In most cases, if it's going to be painted you just miter and caulk. But if it's going to be stained, you either need to cope, or you need to make perfect miters.

As for the nailing strip, you don't need it if you have joists to nail into. But on half of the walls it's likely that the joists are parallel to the crown and when nailing the top edge of the crown, you would be nailing between joists. In that event, you could glue and toenail a strip of 1x2 or similar to the ceiling. It often helps to cut an angle on it to match the back of the crown. And don't make the mistake of nailing it too far out or it will push the crown out too far. It should be held back at least 1/8" so that you can push the crown back into it if needed. Rather than a strip, some guys make triangles and screw them to the wall studs. Seems to me the strip is easier. Others forget the nailer and just toenail the top, crossing their nails like an X into the ceiling drywall. I don't care for that because I think it allows too much movement in the crown.

Inexpensive nailers? Not really. But you could maybe rent a Dewalt 18V cordless angled finish nailer. It works off a battery and is pretty nice for little jobs like what you are considering. Other cordless nailers are made by Paslode and Senco. Of the 3, you should be able to find one at a rental store.

Don't forget to cut the crown "upside down and backwards"!

Thanks XSleeper. Appreciate the info. I like that last sentence. :) I'm smiling now, but I bet one of those cuts I'll forget. Yeah, I'll be putting up all white crowns to match the ceiling white.

You kind of lost me a bit with your shimming techniques. I guess you meant to shim the top near the flat part of the crown where it hits the ceiling? Where are the crowns usually nailed (top and bottom) and should I drill first?

Regarding nail strips, "And don't make the mistake of nailing it too far out or it will push the crown out too far".
Not sure what you mean here, and if I use a 1x2 nail strip, will it be nailed to the wall or ceiling?

Again, thanks for your lengthy input, It's very much appreciated.

Sorry to butt in, but how large will the crown moulding be? If it's going to be fairly large, you might want to consider using a sliding compound miter saw.

You'll nail the bottom to the wall studs. Find your 1st wall stud and then you can measure about 16" to find the next one. Or, use a stud finder if you have one. If not, use the "tap on the wall" technique. You know, tap across the wall with your knuckles. The area over the stud sounds dull whereas the area between the studs sound hollow.

If you plan on renting the nailer, I'd do it after getting the materials, doing the measurements and cuts, etc. It could take a while if it's your first time.

Have fun! :)

Since it will be painted, I'd miter the corners, and plan on caulking them regardless of how nice you can make them. A little expansion and contraction with the seasons will make them gap open if you don't caulk.

About the shimming, yes, you have the right idea.

Regarding where to nail, that's hard to explain without seeing the profile. Here's an image that might help to explain it:

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/thexsleeper/BoxBeamsandcrownmoulding007.jpg

You nail the moulding to the wall along the bottom, usually in the bottom cove (convave area) where the nail hole will be easy to fill (not in a groove).

As for the top, you shoot a nail straight up in the cove that is directly below the square edge that meets the ceiling.

Regarding whether to predrill, it might be a good idea if you are nailing by hand- sure helps the nail go in easier. The hole you drill would need to be small enough that the nail will not fit in the hole. Too big of a drill bit and the nail isn't going to hold anything. It's been a while since I nailed by hand (hope you like nailing upside down and are GOOD at it, or you'll beat the tar out of your crown) but usually you only have to predrill hard woods like oak. Only drive the nail in 3/4 of the way, then finish it off with the proper sized nail set.

As for the nailer strip, where it goes depends on the size of your crown. If it's a little baby crown that's only 2" wide I would say you don't even need a nailer on the ceiling. Basically you need to take a short scrap of crown and put it up on the ceiling to visualize where the back of the crown will be. As you hold it up, put a pencil mark on the ceiling that represents where the BACK of the crown will be as it lays on the ceiling. What I mean by "don't make the mistake of nailing it too far out or it will push the crown out too far" is that your nailer needs to be at least 1/8" behind that pencil line or else you run the risk of it pushing the crown out. If it pushes the crown out, your crown will not fit tight against the ceiling and there will be a gap.

In most cases the nailer is glued with construction adhesive and is nailed to the drywall in a few places to hold in place until the glue dries.

Okay, thanks guys. I'm thinking about a 3" crown...just enough to dress up the room and not too big to be gaudy. I guess I should paint the crown before installing, huh? And, no I'm not good at nailing upside down. I didn't think about that. If those nailers went so high I'd by one, but probably a stupid idea...might just rent. Good idea about renting after everything is ready to go.

What size finishing nail do I use for 3"... 6d?

Yeah, I've pre-drilled before on some other projects, and I usually stick the nail in the drill case holder to find which one the nail fits...then use the next sized bit down. I thought installing white molding would be more forgiving since I can caulk some of the small mistakes and such, and I didn't think about the wood shrinking and expanding with seasons...good point.

I'm still a little fuzzy about where to nail because I'm not familiar with molding terminology, but I'll figure it out I guess. If I nail to the stud, would that be enough to hold it secure to the wall, and would I have to add a second nail to the ceiling plate...or would one nail be good enough. Sorry if y'all have already coverd that.

If you're using a finish gun (15 or 16 ga), you'll want a 2" long nail to attach to the wall. 2" will probably work for the ceiling too, although 2 1/2" might be better.

You usually need some nails in the top edge- over time the crown may want to droop down, and gap open on top. You'll figure out where to nail.

Okay, thanks fro the help and info.

Sorry to bother you again XSleeper , but it's brought to my attention that I'll only need one nail strip the way my joists are layed out, so I get the 1x2" strips and slant cut it so no interference. How would I nail it to the wall? With the 2" or the 1" side? I can nail it to the studs and then I'll have a nailer strip...I think. :)

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the joists are spaced differently than studs aren't they? I'm thinking the studs are 16" oc and the joists are 24" oc...or am I all wet? Thanks again.

Sorry butt in again, I know XSleeper's gonna come back to ya, but...

You can paint before or even after. Personally, I'd prefer after b/c you'll probably end up caulking the top the and bottom of the crown (depending how your walls are and how the whole installation goes...). You'll end up caulking all the nail holes as well and any place you might have to splice two pieces of crown together. Either way is ok though.

Jimtnc- no problem, we're here to help.

DIYaddict- don't worry about butting in- I don't have the monopoly on free advice! ;)

I think the 1x2 will get laid flat against the ceiling, with the wide side being glued to the ceiling, then it would get tacked up into the ceiling drywall with a few finish nails to hold it in place. The trick when nailing to drywall is to just toenail 2 nails in opposite directions so that they cross like an X, or a V. It's sufficient to hold things together until the glue dries.

If your room is square, you will likely only need a nailer on 2 walls- usually it's the 2 walls that are parallel to your ceiling joists.

Regarding the spacing, usually the walls are 16" OC, and the ceiling 24" OC. But you'll want to buy a cheap $10 studfinder for SURE. It would pay for you to go around and mark all the studs on the wall and ceiling with a pencil prior to getting started on your project.

And I agree with DIYaddict, that you can either paint before or after. If the trim is bare unprimed wood, my preference would be to prime it and give it one coat of paint prior to installing it. After installation you'll fill nail holes, caulk edges, and then after it's up you'd give it all one last (2nd) coat.

Okay, thanks again guys. Yeah, I've got a stud finder...sure comes in handy. I have popcorn ceilings, and I'm trying to envision that 2" trying to lay flat on my ceiling.

Also forgive my ignorance, but it doesn't seem like it's too sturdy glueing/tacking wood to sheetrock then nailing into that wood to keep the crown flat at the top. Seems like at some point that nail strip would just drop down from internal climate conditions and open up a gap along the ceiling, but what do I know. Guess if my biggest problem is gonna be having an issue with the nail strip, I'll probably have a pretty nice job. LOL! Just having problems seeing it secured up there, I guess.

Also someone emailed this to me: "If your crown isn't too big and you nail to all the studs and joists you can get by with an 18 gauge pneumatic brad nailer. Brad nailers don't require a large compressor. If your compressor can blow up a car tire it's probably big enough for a brad nailer. Harbor Freight sells brad nailers that use 2 inch brads for about $20."

What do you think of this idea. If it's worthy, I can certainly pop for a few more bucks if it will make my job smoother, but if it's a bad idea I'll move along. Not really concerned about the longevity of the tool, just so it does a good job. Never really thought about brads, but are they as good as nails?

Popcorn ceilings: you'll want to take a 2" wide putty knife and scrape the "popcorn" off the ceiling so that you have a smooth area for the 1x2. Actually, you'll need to scrape ALL the popcorn off where the crown moulding will be sitting, or else it isn't going to fit tight against the ceiling.

glueing/tacking wood to sheetrock: You'd be amazed how a strip of PL200 construction adhesive will bond to drywall. Once it's set up, it will tear the paper off the drywall before it lets go. You have nothing to worry about there, I'm not giving you bad advice. The only way it would come down is if the ceiling wasn't scraped clean or if you scrimped on the adhesive. I'd run a healthy bead of adhesive on the 1x2 (a wavy line of adhesive will hold better than a straight line) before pushing it up against the ceiling and tacking it. Obviously, having an assistant would help. Glue has a way of getting on things you don't want it to. :eek:

brad nailer: A brad nailer with 2" long nails would be fine to attach the crown to the wall. It would be fine to attach the nailer to the drywall. It would be fine to attach the crown to the nailer. But it would likely NOT be long enough to attach the crown to the ceiling joists on the 2 walls that do not have the 1x2 nailer- the 2" nail would not be long enough to penetrate the thicker top part of the crown, travel through the drywall at an angle, and drive into the ceiling joist far enough to hold. If you wanted to get around this, just put up nailers on ALL the walls. Then the 2" brad nails will work fine. 18 ga. brad nails don't have as much holding power as the larger 15 or 16 ga. nails that the larger finish nailer shoot, but they would work fine for a 3" crown that has nailers directly behind it.

A Harbor Freight nailer is probably a good DIY'er / occasional use tool. Can't beat $20. Heck, my hammer cost more than that.

XSleeper - thanks for the advice...I wasn't challenging you, was just having a DIY'er moment. :) Still wondering if I want to pop for that nailer gun. I'm gonna have more crown to put up...this room is a test case to see if I can do it right. If so, I'll continue around where I think it would look nice. The price of a decent nailer 15/16ga is probably close to what they rent for several days. Do I need one that will shoot 2.5" as well as 2" or smaller?

I have one of those little compressors for pumping up tires at home, but probably not enough to drive a nailer. What would be a minimum sized tank for that? As you can see, I love tools...even if I only use them once. LOL! Sears is having a sale now and Harbor Freight also.

Well you are exactly right about renting vs buying. If you rent, that money is thrown right out the window. At least if you buy it, you will recoup that money. I'd say that if you plan to do any additional nailing, to buy the nailer, or even a compressor/nailer combo if you don't have someone you can borrow a compressor from.

As for the 15 or 16 ga nailers, every one that I know of is made to accept up to a 2 1/2" nail. 18 ga brad nailers are usually limited to a maximum of 2 1/8".

Never tried to run a gun off a compressor like what you have, but I kind of doubt it would work. Most tires only need 35 lbs, while nail guns require 80 - 120 lbs. The minimum compressor I've seen is this little one that Senco sells for $99. And even it won't keep up with a 15 ga finish gun for more than about 5 or 6 shots in a row.

You could also do what a lot of people do... go with a cordless nailer (Senco makes one, Paslode makes one, Dewalt has a couple cordless nailers) and when you are done with it, sell it on Ebay. Or, buy it off Ebay, use it and then sell it again when you're done. Some people have had good success with that.

Thanks XSleeper. I saw that Porter Cable has a nailer kit with a brad nailer, 16ga finish nailer, 25' hose and a 150psi compressor for $269 at Home Depot, and Harbor. Looks like a good starter kit, and the reviews were mainly in the 5 out of 5 range. Is there much difference in the 15 to 16 ga nails?

The 15 ga nail is a little larger than the 16 ga, and has a little more holding power, but the difference is probably negligible. The 16 ga leaves a little smaller hole, which a lot of guys like because it means it is a little easier to putty and hide. 18 ga leaves a VERY tiny hole that is almost invisible compared to the others. For this reason, i'll use an 18 ga. brad nailer whereever possible.

The biggest difference between 15 ga and 16 ga is that ANGLED finish nailers are usually 15 ga, while STRIAGHT finish nailers are almost always 16 ga. I prefer the angled finish nailer to the straight one, because it's always easy to maneuver when installing crown or base. You don't have to worry about holding the gun a certain way to nail (with a straight nailer, the magazine can get in the way or scrape the wall unless you hold the gun a certain way) You can also usually nail into corners tighter with the angled nailer. I prefer the angled nailer for crown moulding.

But yes, the PC kit is a nice starter kit. You'll have years worth of fun with it. ;)

Bostich, Senco and Dewalt all have kits as well, but I think Senco's kit features that little mini compressor that is a little undersized for bigger guns.

I did buy the PC kit from HD, and when I got there they had a store sale on it reducing it to $249. Yep, I bought it. It's the better model that has the 150psi compressor, etc, that's priced most everywhere for $329. They also sell PC brand nails and brads in a good assortment of sizes. Now I've got to get out the owner's manual and get prepared for some winter work.

XSleeper - thanks for all your help, and I'll more than likely be yelling for help soon again. :)

I was watching a video of this guy showing proper techinques of crown cutting, and he said something that I would like y'all to comment on. He said that most of the errors come (given the fact the length is correct) from moving the material to cut from the left side to the right, and said if you use and move the COMPOUND MITER JIG from up against the fence to turning 180 degrees to facing the fence with the material right-side up adn staying on the same left side you will never have a problem matching up the cuts. Is this something to consider?

It sounds like you're watching the cut-n-crown video. It's a simple jig that is made for cutting crown moulding. The jig he has invented is innovative, because it breaks most of the normal rules about cutting crown moulding. The one thing I don't like about it is that for some cuts, the blade will be exiting out the face of the crown, which could lead to chipping of that leading edge. (he claims that a sharp blade won't do that) Other than that, it's kind of a novel invention.

But I'd probably never buy one.

The part about errors coming when you flip the miter around is pure bologna.

Yeah, it was some video like that. Not being in the trade it sounded plausible, but I guess not. Didn't think about the blade cutting the wrong way causing rips. Guess I'll just trust my Hitachi compound miter and a little common sense...and a few extra feet of material.

The cut-n-crown jig definately works... I was just saying that *I'd* probably never get one. They always say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, you know. :D It might be easier for a DIY'er, I don't know. I saw it in Kansas City at a trade show, and it looked pretty cool. The small scraps he was using to demonstrate made it look easy.

I actually made myself a similar jig on one occasion when I needed to cut some crown that was taller than my fence was. It was basically just a big triangle shaped block that sat against the miter saw fence and the crown laid back on it- the triangle held it at the correct angle whilest I cut it. Worked good.

You're limited by the cut-n-crown jig to relatively small crown mouldings- not sure of the exact size it will cut. You also need to get a jig that is made for the exact spring angle of your crown. Not all crown is the same angle- there are a few oddballs- but for a DIY'er, you would probably only need 1 or 2 of the jigs... 45 and 52 degree spring, I'm guessing are the most popular.

And then there's the blade/tearout issue.

Crown moulding stops are an accessory made for most major brands of miter saws, and if you decide to go that route, I highly recommend them. When cutting the crown moulding "in position" (upside down and backwards), they help assure that the crown moulding sits at the correct angle each time you cut.

Thanks for the input. I did buy a jig since I'ma DIY, but it's not that same one...I got the jig (see link) from Rockler along with the 18" protractor. Probably didn't need them but may come in handy down the road.

When you say "cutting the crown moulding "in position" (upside down and backwards)", do you mean the crown face is toward the fence? See, I'm already getting confused on little issues.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10565&filter=67626

No, the face is still toward you, but the crown is upside down. Usually crown has a thin edge, and the bottom half may have a small ogee, while the top half has a thick edge with a large ogee. The thick edge is always against the ceiling. So when you cut "in position", the crown sits in the miter saw at the proper spring angle, with the fence being like the wall, and the bottom of the saw being like the ceiling. If your cutting a miter for a corner that's on your left (when looking at the wall) when you cut it, the crown moulding will be on your left, but the miter will be on the right side of the crown. Everything is just backwards (upside down) from how you visualize it on the wall.

Okay, I gotcha. That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.