Apartment and Rental Properties - Security Deposit issue with landlord (your thoughts?)

Hello,

This is my first post so I am hoping that I am posting in the correct forum. Here’s my story. I lived at an apartment complex for a year with my little dog and moved out. They sent me an itemized list of damages after I moved out stating that I “ripped the carpet up” and that there was “urine stains on the carpet”. I know for a fact that there was no ripped carpet, and my dog is fully potty trained (he is housed in his cage when I am not home). Anyhow they informed me that they are keeping my security deposit which was $175 plus they are charging me and extra $150 + for replacement of the carpet. I went with the steps of letting them know that I disagree with their charges and this is completely untrue. I do not live like that and if I did wrong I have no problems paying for what I did. Anyhow they wrote me back and stated that they are not going to return my deposit and I owe additional money because they had to replace the carpet. Things went on and I asked for copies of photos they took of the “ripped carpet” and the “stains.” They sent me a black and white printer copy of 2 corners. My thought was, this is not my apartment and how can they even prove that those pics are from my apartment??? They could have taken those pics from ANYWHERE! So from there I went and filed a case at small claims to get my deposit back.

Today was the pre-trial. The landlord’s attorney was aggressive and I could tell he was trying to scare me by saying I won’t win, I can’t prove anything (I don’t have an attorney as it’s for such a small amount of a few hundred dollars). I asked him how you are going to prove that I made those damages. He states in return that he don’t have to and it’s my problem, etc. Anyhow basically after the pre-trial, the judge stated that I have 30 days to give him the names of witnesses (I have 4 witnesses who helped me move out of that place and saw that the place was in perfect condition). As I walked out, the landlord’s attorney stated to me, “just to let you know, I can try to talk to the landlord but I doubt they will try to settle on anything as they have already paid me a lot of money. Also to let you know that if we do win, you could be liable for their court and attorney fees.” I am thinking that this is untrue. Does anyhow know how true this is? Also does anyone think I have a chance at getting my deposit back? I live in Michigan by the way. From my knowledge, Michigan is pretty resident friendly.

p.s. The judge made a comment about how come we did not talk about this outside of the court room and try to settle, the attorney goes we talked a little bit but didn’t get anywhere. Truth of the matter is we didn’t talk about settling at all. He was just trying to intimidate me and that was it!

S.L

It's your word versus the landlord's. He has pictures. You have witnesses. If you lose, then you pay attorney fees and court costs.

It's dismaying to think the landlord hired an attorney to keep $175 security deposit. The attorney fees likely exceed that amount.

Did the landlord provide you with an inventory check list upon your moving into the apartment? This should have included a general description of the condition of carpet and contents.

It's always a good idea to take pictures when moving in and again when moving out in order to document conditions.

Landlord/tenant laws vary from state to state. Read Michigan's here:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:ppxb97oqBzQJ:www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/Publications/tenantlandlord.pdf+michigan+landlord+tenant+law&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

I know this doesn't help you any, but the title of your post did ask for "thoughts":

My thoughts are that it was unwise to file a case for a $175 deposit, especially without taking before and after photos. I would have let them keep the $175 but refused to pay the extra $150. It quite possibly could have ended right there.

I'm not a landlord. But in general if someone sued me and I thought I had a 50/50 chance (pictures), then I would do everything in my power to make their life *miserable* for putting me through the trouble. I would tear up the carpet myself before taking the pictures, if I was going to replace it anyway (normal wear and tear). If I had an extra several hundred dollars to blow I would hire the most expensive attorney I could find, just so the complainant would be out of pocket big time if they lost the case.

Yes I know it's vindictive. It's not the money that would anger me, it's all the time and trouble that the case has caused me.

I'm not sure what your options are at this point. But I'll be watching this thread to see how it turns out. I just hope you aren't nailed with several hundred dollars of attorney's fees.

Here are my thoughts, from a different state.

The burden of proof is not on you, even though you are the plaintiff in this case. The landlord must prove damages beyond reasonable, normal wear and tear. They must provide the pictures, checklists, receipts, or maintenance logs that provide some element of proof of the damages.

Your witnesses are to refute testimony offered by the landlord.

Study the Landlord/Tenant laws in the previous posts and be prepared with questions for your witnesses AND for the landlord in case the judge actually requires you to follow standard trial practices. In lower courts this would be unlikely, but the opposing counsel may request it to try and shake you up.

Be certain that you will be allowed to question all witnesses, including the defendants witnesses. Make sure the court has, if it so requires, a list of everyone that you will want to question, including the landlord management and maintenance personnel, neighbors, etc.

Keep in mind that this is based on the laws in a different state!

It's your word versus the landlord's. He has pictures. You have witnesses. If you lose, then you pay attorney fees and court costs.

It's dismaying to think the landlord hired an attorney to keep $175 security deposit. The attorney fees likely exceed that amount.

Did the landlord provide you with an inventory check list upon your moving into the apartment? This should have included a general description of the condition of carpet and contents.

It's always a good idea to take pictures when moving in and again when moving out in order to document conditions.

Landlord/tenant laws vary from state to state. Read Michigan's here:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:ppxb97oqBzQJ:www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/Publications/tenantlandlord.pdf+michigan+landlord+tenant+law&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


I think you absolutely right in regards to his words against mine as he has pictures and I have witnesses. I also completely agree with you in regards to the petty amount of $175. But they are trying to keep my $175 plus they are trying to charge me another $135 or something. Still nonetheless it’s a small amount compare to the attorney fees they are paying I’m sure. Their attorney stated that the landlord has already paid in the $1000 + for this case already.

Yes the landlord did provide a move-in check list if this is what you’re referring too. I marked everything that was wrong. I have also requested for the prior tenant’s check list and noticed that they stated that the “carpet was worn” just like I did in my check list.

I also noticed that you stated “If you lose, then you pay attorney fees and court costs”. Do you mean that if I lose, I pay the landlord’s attorney fees and courts costs?

Thank you!!

I know this doesn't help you any, but the title of your post did ask for "thoughts":

My thoughts are that it was unwise to file a case for a $175 deposit, especially without taking before and after photos. I would have let them keep the $175 but refused to pay the extra $150. It quite possibly could have ended right there.

I'm not a landlord. But in general if someone sued me and I thought I had a 50/50 chance (pictures), then I would do everything in my power to make their life *miserable* for putting me through the trouble. I would tear up the carpet myself before taking the pictures, if I was going to replace it anyway (normal wear and tear). If I had an extra several hundred dollars to blow I would hire the most expensive attorney I could find, just so the complainant would be out of pocket big time if they lost the case.

Yes I know it's vindictive. It's not the money that would anger me, it's all the time and trouble that the case has caused me.

I'm not sure what your options are at this point. But I'll be watching this thread to see how it turns out. I just hope you aren't nailed with several hundred dollars of attorney's fees.

Thanks for your input!! Yes I now know that it is a great idea to take before and after photos of the apartment. I have lived in several apartments before and never had any issues therefore the thought never crossed my mind. Its one of those things where you definitely learn things as you go.

And I think that you did make a great point in regards to letting them keep my deposit and just refusing to pay the additional charge… BUT why let them “just keep” my money when I didn’t do anything. That’s like walking outside and just tossing $175 in the streets.

Also in regards to your last statement about suing someone, I didn’t just sue them out of no where. I moved out, waited for my security deposit like I always do. A few weeks went by and I get a letter stating I have damages (torn carpet and urine stains). I disputed with them and they pretty much say “you’re wrong, you have to pay”. That’s when I sued. I sued after I was falsely accused.

Thank you!!

Here are my thoughts, from a different state.

The burden of proof is not on you, even though you are the plaintiff in this case. The landlord must prove damages beyond reasonable, normal wear and tear. They must provide the pictures, checklists, receipts, or maintenance logs that provide some element of proof of the damages.

Your witnesses are to refute testimony offered by the landlord.

Study the Landlord/Tenant laws in the previous posts and be prepared with questions for your witnesses AND for the landlord in case the judge actually requires you to follow standard trial practices. In lower courts this would be unlikely, but the opposing counsel may request it to try and shake you up.

Be certain that you will be allowed to question all witnesses, including the defendants witnesses. Make sure the court has, if it so requires, a list of everyone that you will want to question, including the landlord management and maintenance personnel, neighbors, etc.

Keep in mind that this is based on the laws in a different state!

Thank you so much for your comments! What you have said makes sense! The landlord’s attorney was definitely trying to shake me up in regards to stating that it’s my job to prove I didn’t do it and he doesn’t have to prove anything. I was already informed previously by a friend of a friend who is also an attorney for an apartment community who actually told me before going into the pre-trial, what to expect from the landlord’s attorney as he knew the guy. I was told that the landlord’s attorney wins most of the time by scaring people and that he will definitely not try to work it out. Well the friend of a friend was 100% right about the landlord’s attorney. I guess ill just have to see how it goes.

Thanks again!!

Huh. I thought small claims court didn't allow attorneys. At least the states I've been in. Meant to keep it small, and affordable. Thereby no attorneys cost. Guess Michigans not that way.

The last time I rented, I took pictures of all damages, sctatches & dirt. Did the same when I moved out, leaving it cleaner then when I moved in. But always try and do a walk through with the landlord when moving out, to avoid these things.

As much as I would not want to be a landlord of residential property, many of them are unscrupulous. I had one rip me off 20+ years ago, but I moved 12 hours away, so.... I found out my daughters apt, owned by a huge apt company in the area, has a policy of keeping $150 for carpet cleaning & other stuff. In California that would be illegal after, I think it was a year. Unless ruined, Carpet cleaning was wear & tear, and they were required to paint so they couldn't charge you.

Huh. I thought small claims court didn't allow attorneys. At least the states I've been in. Meant to keep it small, and affordable. Thereby no attorneys cost. Guess Michigans not that way.


Being represented by an attorney is a basic right. On the other hand, a corporation MAY NOT appear without representation, because the corporation is not a natural person and therefore cannot represent themselves.

I am certainly not aware of all states rules of court, but would find it difficult to believe that one would not be allowed legal representation even in the lowest court. Even in arbitration...

Huh. I thought small claims court didn't allow attorneys. At least the states I've been in. Meant to keep it small, and affordable. Thereby no attorneys cost. Guess Michigans not that way.

The last time I rented, I took pictures of all damages, sctatches & dirt. Did the same when I moved out, leaving it cleaner then when I moved in. But always try and do a walk through with the landlord when moving out, to avoid these things.

As much as I would not want to be a landlord of residential property, many of them are unscrupulous. I had one rip me off 20+ years ago, but I moved 12 hours away, so.... I found out my daughters apt, owned by a huge apt company in the area, has a policy of keeping $150 for carpet cleaning & other stuff. In California that would be illegal after, I think it was a year. Unless ruined, Carpet cleaning was wear & tear, and they were required to paint so they couldn't charge you.

Sorry i forgot to mention, that i filed in small claims BUT the landlord wanted their attorney to go to court for them so it changed from small claims and when to the civil court.

Pleae read the booklet titled "Truth in renting" if you are from New Jersey. I also know in my state (NJ) that the landlord has 30 days to provide you with an itemized decription of the damages.

Jim

I to am from NJ. I was once told that the landlord was not allowed to with hold the Secuity disposit for damages. They have to send you a bill. from there you have the option to use the deposit to pay for damages. Also if they do with hold any of the security deposit, you can take them to small claims court and if and when you win the landlord needs to pay double of waht they with held, your lawyer and court fees. The law 99% of the time leins in the favor of the tenant.
On another note. If the property tax goes down which it has. The landlord needs to compensite the you. As rent inclues property taxes.

I to am from NJ. I was once told that the landlord was not allowed to with hold the Secuity disposit for damages. They have to send you a bill. from there you have the option to use the deposit to pay for damages. Also if they do with hold any of the security deposit, you can take them to small claims court and if and when you win the landlord needs to pay double of waht they with held, your lawyer and court fees. The law 99% of the time leins in the favor of the tenant.
On another note. If the property tax goes down which it has. The landlord needs to compensite the you. As rent inclues property taxes.
I don't and never have owned rental property but that kind of stiffs the land lord. What's the point of a security deposit, if you can't use it when it is necessary. How many people are going to pay the bill.

As far as the property taxes, does that mean he can raise the rent if they go up? In the middle of your lease, I mean. As a landlord, you need to consider the property cost, taxes, and maintenance when you set your price. If those things change you decide to adjust when the lease is renewed. Not whenever things change. At least that's the way it should be. Seems kinda screwed up to me.

And when's the last time property taxes went down? Prop 13 in CA, in the '80's?

I to am from NJ. I was once told that the landlord was not allowed to with hold the Secuity disposit for damages. They have to send you a bill. from there you have the option to use the deposit to pay for damages. Also if they do with hold any of the security deposit, you can take them to small claims court and if and when you win the landlord needs to pay double of waht they with held, your lawyer and court fees. The law 99% of the time leins in the favor of the tenant.
On another note. If the property tax goes down which it has. The landlord needs to compensite the you. As rent inclues property taxes.

I am from Minnesota, so what I say is based soley on what MN law is. The security deposit absolutely can be used for damage to an apartment. It will be spelled out in the lease and state law. It's what the security deposit is for.

As to the rent, I can make the rent anything I want once the lease is up. Only the market will determine what I can charge. If I make it too high, the tenant will move out and no one else will rent it. What I pay in taxes or any other expenses (and taxes are just a small part of my expenses) have absolutely nothing to do with what I can charge for rent. BTW, I just got my tax statement for next year for one of my duplexes and taxes are going up 14.5%!!!! I sure wish I could pass that on to my tenants, but the rental market is really bad and I will probably have to eat it. Just a part of doing business.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about what can or cannot be done. You really have to read the lease and your states rental law to know what is correct. BTW, it's really too bad that this person's landlord has decided to be such a jerk; gives the rest of us a bad name.

I am a landlord and owner of a small duplex. I alway require damage deposits with every lease. It seems that surge 337 should have done a inspection with his landlord or managment company before renting and before leaving the rental. To leave the premises and turn the keys over to the landlord without a inspection and getting it signed by the
landlord was not smart.
During inspections any issues about wear and tear and damage could be addressed at that time.
A digital cameras also would help with recording conditions.
Deposits are there to protect the landlord from damages and also from rents due when renters move out. It is the tenants responsibility use some common sense about those refundable deposits while he is living in the rental and when they leave.