Home Warranties and Inspections - Failure to disclose well problems
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DIYliz
10-26-07, 08:05 AM
Hello to all who remember my countless post and problems last spring.
I am back and I have a new issue. [imagine that]
We have had a bit of a problem w/ the well on our new home. The sellers agreed to pay for the well, septic and termite inspections. We thought that was awsome and would save us some money. Plus, their home had been on the market over a year and we assumed that this was their way of trying to get the home sold. No red flags went up (they should have).
We do our inspection and we felt we got a good inspection of the home. There were only a few minor things that needed repaird and we asked for them to only fix one electrical outlet that was outside. They agreed.
We received all inspections they provided and everything looked good. We closed on the property and moved in.
ONE week after living there we lost water. We hadn't used the water all day so it was odd. We thought it may have been due to the drought. So I make a call to the compnay who's name is on the well cap. (company A) They put me in touch w/ the guy who drilled the well in 04 and who proceeds to tell me that in Aug of 07 they were called out b/c of a FAILED inspection to the well by a previous buyer. The proceeded to "fix" the problem which was a loss of water during the inspection. Everything they done didn't work such as a 35 gal holding tank and lowering the pump about 10ft. They know this b/c they were called back out after the 2nd failed inspection.
NONE of this was disclosed to us at any time. The disclosure sheet only stated the depth of the well, depth of the pump, the amount of water in the well, the flow rate and recovery rate in which water returns.
With out giving every detail which could go on and on......
We have lost water on a weekly basis since may. We did find out that it is our 20 yr old water softner draining the well when it regins. If we replace this w/ a better system it should help to resolve the issue. HOWEVER, we are not satisfied w/ just doing that. We would have not purchased the home if we knew the well was a low producing well w/ a slow recovery rate. Had we paid for our on well inspection we would have found this out. If the sellers and their reltor hadn't controlled hte inspection our own inspecter would have run all faucets and water would have been lost. I spoke w/ the inspector for the well that was hired by the sellers realtor. He told me that she (their realtor) was present at the inspection and had asked him to only run one faucet at a time. He said he ran only the bathtub faucet and did so for about 45 mins and never lost water.
I was told most inspectors open all faucets at once to cheap perssure and according to well company A that is what happened w/ the first two failed inspections. When we spoke w/ sellers realtor she confirmed that there were two failed inspections and it was b/c the inspector opened all the faucets at once.
What to do? Any advice/direction would be appreciated. I don't want to get a lawyer and I don't want to sue anyone but it may come to that. I did speak w/ an attorney at work who knows about commercial real estate and he did confirm from his knowledge that I may have a claim.
Sorry for the long post. Besides all this..... my buyer is still leasing and she has paid on time every month since june. I only hope she can still get a loan come next May. We LOVE our new home and the neighborhood. We are happy to have moved but HATE not knowing when we'll run out of water while taking a shower....which has happened.
I am back and I have a new issue. [imagine that]
We have had a bit of a problem w/ the well on our new home. The sellers agreed to pay for the well, septic and termite inspections. We thought that was awsome and would save us some money. Plus, their home had been on the market over a year and we assumed that this was their way of trying to get the home sold. No red flags went up (they should have).
We do our inspection and we felt we got a good inspection of the home. There were only a few minor things that needed repaird and we asked for them to only fix one electrical outlet that was outside. They agreed.
We received all inspections they provided and everything looked good. We closed on the property and moved in.
ONE week after living there we lost water. We hadn't used the water all day so it was odd. We thought it may have been due to the drought. So I make a call to the compnay who's name is on the well cap. (company A) They put me in touch w/ the guy who drilled the well in 04 and who proceeds to tell me that in Aug of 07 they were called out b/c of a FAILED inspection to the well by a previous buyer. The proceeded to "fix" the problem which was a loss of water during the inspection. Everything they done didn't work such as a 35 gal holding tank and lowering the pump about 10ft. They know this b/c they were called back out after the 2nd failed inspection.
NONE of this was disclosed to us at any time. The disclosure sheet only stated the depth of the well, depth of the pump, the amount of water in the well, the flow rate and recovery rate in which water returns.
With out giving every detail which could go on and on......
We have lost water on a weekly basis since may. We did find out that it is our 20 yr old water softner draining the well when it regins. If we replace this w/ a better system it should help to resolve the issue. HOWEVER, we are not satisfied w/ just doing that. We would have not purchased the home if we knew the well was a low producing well w/ a slow recovery rate. Had we paid for our on well inspection we would have found this out. If the sellers and their reltor hadn't controlled hte inspection our own inspecter would have run all faucets and water would have been lost. I spoke w/ the inspector for the well that was hired by the sellers realtor. He told me that she (their realtor) was present at the inspection and had asked him to only run one faucet at a time. He said he ran only the bathtub faucet and did so for about 45 mins and never lost water.
I was told most inspectors open all faucets at once to cheap perssure and according to well company A that is what happened w/ the first two failed inspections. When we spoke w/ sellers realtor she confirmed that there were two failed inspections and it was b/c the inspector opened all the faucets at once.
What to do? Any advice/direction would be appreciated. I don't want to get a lawyer and I don't want to sue anyone but it may come to that. I did speak w/ an attorney at work who knows about commercial real estate and he did confirm from his knowledge that I may have a claim.
Sorry for the long post. Besides all this..... my buyer is still leasing and she has paid on time every month since june. I only hope she can still get a loan come next May. We LOVE our new home and the neighborhood. We are happy to have moved but HATE not knowing when we'll run out of water while taking a shower....which has happened.
Integrator97
10-26-07, 09:10 AM
It definitely sounds like an atty is the way to go. I would find out what standard practice is for the inspection. If the norm is all or multiple faucets, especially if that inspector normally does multiple. He should have noted the deviation from standard practice, so he may be complicit. Also, the realtor could be complicit in hiding the facts. Normally they probably wouldn't have to tell you about the failed inspections if it was corrected, but this indicates the realtor still felt there was a problem. You may be able to force them and the sellers to pay to fix the well problem.
DIYliz
10-26-07, 09:42 AM
Thank you for your response and I agree.
I have been told the "norm" is to open all faucets and this was done on my first home and it had a well. My brother bought a home on city water and they did the same thing. I will find out what the protocol is but I have a feeling I may not get much in the way of writing in that area.
Also, the only fix to this is drilling a new well which we may end up w/ the same problems and cost us over $5k.
Or
City water is available at the end of the street. we are the 3rd house from the end and that is the closest connection. The sellers and their realtor told us they looked into connecting and that it would cost $20k to hook up b/c they would have to drill through two other ppls yards and the sellers would have to pay their portion b/c those ppl don't want city water.
I have talked to a few ppl and most of us feel there was some deception in the seller and realtor paying for the inspections in order to controll them. Especially the well. Had they said, "oh we'll pay for the well inspection only" then red flags would have went up for us. It is our beliefe that they covered it by agreeing to pay for all 3. That was their way of hiding it.
I have been told the "norm" is to open all faucets and this was done on my first home and it had a well. My brother bought a home on city water and they did the same thing. I will find out what the protocol is but I have a feeling I may not get much in the way of writing in that area.
Also, the only fix to this is drilling a new well which we may end up w/ the same problems and cost us over $5k.
Or
City water is available at the end of the street. we are the 3rd house from the end and that is the closest connection. The sellers and their realtor told us they looked into connecting and that it would cost $20k to hook up b/c they would have to drill through two other ppls yards and the sellers would have to pay their portion b/c those ppl don't want city water.
I have talked to a few ppl and most of us feel there was some deception in the seller and realtor paying for the inspections in order to controll them. Especially the well. Had they said, "oh we'll pay for the well inspection only" then red flags would have went up for us. It is our beliefe that they covered it by agreeing to pay for all 3. That was their way of hiding it.
Integrator97
10-26-07, 09:51 AM
Sounds like it.
Where did you get the 20K price for city water? How far is that in feet? Seems like a lot to me, but I didn't notice were you are. I would assume there is utility easments along the road. They would just have to dig a trench, cut and fix the driveways, and put in the pipe.
I would still try to get the previous owners and realtor involved in paying.
Where did you get the 20K price for city water? How far is that in feet? Seems like a lot to me, but I didn't notice were you are. I would assume there is utility easments along the road. They would just have to dig a trench, cut and fix the driveways, and put in the pipe.
I would still try to get the previous owners and realtor involved in paying.
joed
10-26-07, 10:03 AM
What did the disclosure sheet say for recovery rate? Was that true or totally false. If it was false then you have a case for non disclosure or lieing or what ever they call it. You should be able to sue for a new well or drilling your well deeper or what ever it takes to get the disclosed recovery rate.
Definitley call an atty.
Definitley call an atty.
slumlordfrank
10-26-07, 10:33 AM
But before you hire one, do the following, it will not take away any of your rights to an attorney and it may save you money by having the other parties pay for attorneys first. If the facts are exactly as you described their attorneys may tell them to get busy and fix the situation! Thereby saving you attorney's fees:
Send a letter to the;
Sellers
Inspector
Realtor (agent)
Realtor (broker), this is the one that's really on the hook here
Local and/or state Real Estate Commission
It should take you at least a week to compose this letter!! Pretend it is the most important college paper, or job application you'll ever write. It needs to state the problem and the facts clearly, concisely and in short, easy to read sentences and paragraphs. No typos, or misspelled words.
Point out that the sellers and the agent (and therefor the broker as he is responsible for ALL actions and omissions of the agent) knew about the failed inspection. That since they all knew this they were under an obligation to disclose this.
That you consider the seller's hiring of a different "inspector" (and you need to find out if this inspector is licensed by the state or there will ultimately be no point in suing them) to prepare a "non standard" inspection was, in all likelihood an attempt to commit FRAUD.
Realtors and their brokers pay pretty heft premiums for Errors and Omissions insurance. This is why they do. It was an Error for the agent (and broker) to COLLUDE with the seller to commit fraud. It was an Omission for the agent (and broker) to fail to notify you of the failed test, AND THE FACT THAT NO CORRECTIVE ACTION HAD BEEN TAKEN.
In the letter give all parties 10 business days to reply with how they intend to remedy this situation. Tell them that with no adequate response at the end of ten days you will refer it to the District Attorney's Office and to a Plaintiff's Attorney.
Tell them you intend to seek both Criminal charges and Civil Remedies.
Oh yeah, this is not "do it yourself" lawyering like in small claims court. This is "big kid's" court. In big kids court you want a rough, tough fire breathing attorney.
Frank
Frank
Send a letter to the;
Sellers
Inspector
Realtor (agent)
Realtor (broker), this is the one that's really on the hook here
Local and/or state Real Estate Commission
It should take you at least a week to compose this letter!! Pretend it is the most important college paper, or job application you'll ever write. It needs to state the problem and the facts clearly, concisely and in short, easy to read sentences and paragraphs. No typos, or misspelled words.
Point out that the sellers and the agent (and therefor the broker as he is responsible for ALL actions and omissions of the agent) knew about the failed inspection. That since they all knew this they were under an obligation to disclose this.
That you consider the seller's hiring of a different "inspector" (and you need to find out if this inspector is licensed by the state or there will ultimately be no point in suing them) to prepare a "non standard" inspection was, in all likelihood an attempt to commit FRAUD.
Realtors and their brokers pay pretty heft premiums for Errors and Omissions insurance. This is why they do. It was an Error for the agent (and broker) to COLLUDE with the seller to commit fraud. It was an Omission for the agent (and broker) to fail to notify you of the failed test, AND THE FACT THAT NO CORRECTIVE ACTION HAD BEEN TAKEN.
In the letter give all parties 10 business days to reply with how they intend to remedy this situation. Tell them that with no adequate response at the end of ten days you will refer it to the District Attorney's Office and to a Plaintiff's Attorney.
Tell them you intend to seek both Criminal charges and Civil Remedies.
Oh yeah, this is not "do it yourself" lawyering like in small claims court. This is "big kid's" court. In big kids court you want a rough, tough fire breathing attorney.
Frank
Frank
Integrator97
10-26-07, 10:41 AM
In big kids court you want a rough, tough fire breathing attorney.
Hee-hee. My favorite kind.
Hee-hee. My favorite kind.
DIYliz
12-29-07, 06:56 PM
I got the letter written and even had a real estate attorney (friend) review it.
We started out w/ a non confrontational letter and gave them 15 days to respond. The letter was just sent out as it took some time to write, review and my moral of sending it near Thanksgiving and Xmas got in the way.
We informed them of the problems and facts and asked the sellers and realtor's for a resolution.
Now we'll sit and see what response we get.
If we don't get one we'll have the attorney write a letter as LandlordFrank described.
If they respond w/ a solution we are not happy with we will consult the attorney and go from their.
I believe the sellers will want to resolve this with out having to go through the courts.
We are ready to go all the way if needed.
Thank you everyone for the help you have given me over the last year.
We started out w/ a non confrontational letter and gave them 15 days to respond. The letter was just sent out as it took some time to write, review and my moral of sending it near Thanksgiving and Xmas got in the way.
We informed them of the problems and facts and asked the sellers and realtor's for a resolution.
Now we'll sit and see what response we get.
If we don't get one we'll have the attorney write a letter as LandlordFrank described.
If they respond w/ a solution we are not happy with we will consult the attorney and go from their.
I believe the sellers will want to resolve this with out having to go through the courts.
We are ready to go all the way if needed.
Thank you everyone for the help you have given me over the last year.
DIYliz
01-20-08, 06:29 PM
Ok, got the letter sent. Got a response from their attorney wanting some documentation. Their attorney stated his clients believe there were no problems and that there is an adequate supply of water. He also stated he discussed the cost of litigation w/ his clients and told them NOT to close the door on this issue. (Sounds to me like they know they are SOL and in the wrong and have no grounds to stand on if we go to litigation and that they will have to pay our attorney fee's as well).
We went ahead and hired an attorney other than our friend so we don't risk ruining a friendship if something went wrong. lol
Our new attorney is working on a response letter to their attorney and stating we want them to pay for city water. Our attorney believes we will be able to negotiate something w/o having to go to litigation depending on what we are willing to settle for.
At this point we really aren't sure that we are willing to settle for anything less then them paying the cost of hooking up to city water.
I will keep updating as needed.
We went ahead and hired an attorney other than our friend so we don't risk ruining a friendship if something went wrong. lol
Our new attorney is working on a response letter to their attorney and stating we want them to pay for city water. Our attorney believes we will be able to negotiate something w/o having to go to litigation depending on what we are willing to settle for.
At this point we really aren't sure that we are willing to settle for anything less then them paying the cost of hooking up to city water.
I will keep updating as needed.
Integrator97
01-20-08, 08:23 PM
Yea, I agree. City water at this point. Hopefully you got one of those crusty old lawyers that cuss and all that. I had to use one recently in a fence dispute, and it just took one letter. Crusty old guy.
I am still curious about the 20K cost for city water. How far is it in feet? How many spot of concrete are they going to have to cut? Just seems awfully high to me.
I am still curious about the 20K cost for city water. How far is it in feet? How many spot of concrete are they going to have to cut? Just seems awfully high to me.
mdtaylor
01-21-08, 06:17 AM
A couple of thoughts here....
You asked for an inspection, agreed to the inspector, accepted his inspection. Seems that you have no beef with how the inspector was chosen, or the seller. Your only hope is to prove, in court, that the RE agent and the inspector conspired to reduce the standard for inspecting the well, if there is such a standard, which you will also have to prove. IF you can prove that (and it might simply be a matter of filing a claim against the insurance or bond of the inspector) then you probably have more of a civil case against the inspector. The RE commission in your state would have a case against the RE agent. But, that is all based on my experience in my state.
City water... Installation costs are normally borne by the requester. That would be you. However, there can be a side arrangement whereby, if, in the future, the first house decided to hook to city water, his installation costs would be paid as one-third, and would be refunded to you by the city. If, and when, the second house desired city water, his installation cost would be one-third, and the city would refund you that amount as well, leaving you with a final installation cost of one-third. But, it is something you would have to ask for, and maybe fight for.
Good luck
You asked for an inspection, agreed to the inspector, accepted his inspection. Seems that you have no beef with how the inspector was chosen, or the seller. Your only hope is to prove, in court, that the RE agent and the inspector conspired to reduce the standard for inspecting the well, if there is such a standard, which you will also have to prove. IF you can prove that (and it might simply be a matter of filing a claim against the insurance or bond of the inspector) then you probably have more of a civil case against the inspector. The RE commission in your state would have a case against the RE agent. But, that is all based on my experience in my state.
City water... Installation costs are normally borne by the requester. That would be you. However, there can be a side arrangement whereby, if, in the future, the first house decided to hook to city water, his installation costs would be paid as one-third, and would be refunded to you by the city. If, and when, the second house desired city water, his installation cost would be one-third, and the city would refund you that amount as well, leaving you with a final installation cost of one-third. But, it is something you would have to ask for, and maybe fight for.
Good luck
DIYliz
01-22-08, 02:14 PM
Yea, I agree. City water at this point. Hopefully you got one of those crusty old lawyers that cuss and all that. I had to use one recently in a fence dispute, and it just took one letter. Crusty old guy.
I am still curious about the 20K cost for city water. How far is it in feet? How many spot of concrete are they going to have to cut? Just seems awfully high to me.
I don't know exactly how far but I am thinking at least 1000 feet if not up to 2000 ft.
We would have to go through the neighbors yard and as far as we are concerned he doesn't want to hook up. However we need to speak to him again.
I honestly don't think it will cost anywhere close to $20k but maybe more like $10k.
I wouldn't say she's crusty but I believe she and the owner are going to do what I need them to do. My butt of a co-worker recommended them and he said this attorney and his office are the big bad fire breathing attorney I want.
I am still curious about the 20K cost for city water. How far is it in feet? How many spot of concrete are they going to have to cut? Just seems awfully high to me.
I don't know exactly how far but I am thinking at least 1000 feet if not up to 2000 ft.
We would have to go through the neighbors yard and as far as we are concerned he doesn't want to hook up. However we need to speak to him again.
I honestly don't think it will cost anywhere close to $20k but maybe more like $10k.
I wouldn't say she's crusty but I believe she and the owner are going to do what I need them to do. My butt of a co-worker recommended them and he said this attorney and his office are the big bad fire breathing attorney I want.
DIYliz
01-22-08, 02:17 PM
A couple of thoughts here....
You asked for an inspection, agreed to the inspector, accepted his inspection. Seems that you have no beef with how the inspector was chosen, or the seller. Your only hope is to prove, in court, that the RE agent and the inspector conspired to reduce the standard for inspecting the well, if there is such a standard, which you will also have to prove. IF you can prove that (and it might simply be a matter of filing a claim against the insurance or bond of the inspector) then you probably have more of a civil case against the inspector. The RE commission in your state would have a case against the RE agent. But, that is all based on my experience in my state.
City water... Installation costs are normally borne by the requester. That would be you. However, there can be a side arrangement whereby, if, in the future, the first house decided to hook to city water, his installation costs would be paid as one-third, and would be refunded to you by the city. If, and when, the second house desired city water, his installation cost would be one-third, and the city would refund you that amount as well, leaving you with a final installation cost of one-third. But, it is something you would have to ask for, and maybe fight for.
Good luck
These are great questions and something I will bring up to the attorney when we speak next.
The city water made us aware of the payback system. We hope we can talk the neighbor into hooking up. Supposedly he had low pressure problems but he lives a lone and I don't think he really cares. However our other neighbors brought up a good point. He's getting older and perhaps he may want to sell his home someday soon and hooking up to water would be in his best interest.
You asked for an inspection, agreed to the inspector, accepted his inspection. Seems that you have no beef with how the inspector was chosen, or the seller. Your only hope is to prove, in court, that the RE agent and the inspector conspired to reduce the standard for inspecting the well, if there is such a standard, which you will also have to prove. IF you can prove that (and it might simply be a matter of filing a claim against the insurance or bond of the inspector) then you probably have more of a civil case against the inspector. The RE commission in your state would have a case against the RE agent. But, that is all based on my experience in my state.
City water... Installation costs are normally borne by the requester. That would be you. However, there can be a side arrangement whereby, if, in the future, the first house decided to hook to city water, his installation costs would be paid as one-third, and would be refunded to you by the city. If, and when, the second house desired city water, his installation cost would be one-third, and the city would refund you that amount as well, leaving you with a final installation cost of one-third. But, it is something you would have to ask for, and maybe fight for.
Good luck
These are great questions and something I will bring up to the attorney when we speak next.
The city water made us aware of the payback system. We hope we can talk the neighbor into hooking up. Supposedly he had low pressure problems but he lives a lone and I don't think he really cares. However our other neighbors brought up a good point. He's getting older and perhaps he may want to sell his home someday soon and hooking up to water would be in his best interest.
Integrator97
01-22-08, 04:56 PM
I don't know exactly how far but I am thinking at least 1000 feet if not up to 2000 ft.
We would have to go through the neighbors yard and as far as we are concerned he doesn't want to hook up. However we need to speak to him again.
I honestly don't think it will cost anywhere close to $20k but maybe more like $10k.
I wouldn't say she's crusty but I believe she and the owner are going to do what I need them to do. My butt of a co-worker recommended them and he said this attorney and his office are the big bad fire breathing attorney I want.
Wow. That's a quarter mile. You must have some nice sized parcels. I still don't think it shoud be anywhere near $10k. More like under $5k, unless you've got some weird obstacles.
We would have to go through the neighbors yard and as far as we are concerned he doesn't want to hook up. However we need to speak to him again.
I honestly don't think it will cost anywhere close to $20k but maybe more like $10k.
I wouldn't say she's crusty but I believe she and the owner are going to do what I need them to do. My butt of a co-worker recommended them and he said this attorney and his office are the big bad fire breathing attorney I want.
Wow. That's a quarter mile. You must have some nice sized parcels. I still don't think it shoud be anywhere near $10k. More like under $5k, unless you've got some weird obstacles.
DIYliz
04-28-08, 09:13 AM
Got a crappy quote on city water from the city.
Ductile $10 ft
labor $10-20 ft
length from water main to our property is approx 350 ft.
if you do the math we are looking at $6000-12000.
We are in negotiations at this point. :coffee:
(ps I suck at measuring distance with my eyes) lmao I had no idea 350 ft was not 1000ft. lmao
Ductile $10 ft
labor $10-20 ft
length from water main to our property is approx 350 ft.
if you do the math we are looking at $6000-12000.
We are in negotiations at this point. :coffee:
(ps I suck at measuring distance with my eyes) lmao I had no idea 350 ft was not 1000ft. lmao
Integrator97
04-28-08, 09:57 PM
Got a crappy quote on city water from the city.
Ductile $10 ft
labor $10-20 ft
length from water main to our property is approx 350 ft.
if you do the math we are looking at $6000-12000.
We are in negotiations at this point. :coffee:
(ps I suck at measuring distance with my eyes) lmao I had no idea 350 ft was not 1000ft. lmao
Hoo boy, biting my tongue here, to keep the forum clean.:cheshire:
Does it have to be the city, or can you use your own contactor, with the city doing the connection probably. And if you use your own contactor, can you just run a 3/4 or 1 inch line for you, instead of a main water line?
Ductile $10 ft
labor $10-20 ft
length from water main to our property is approx 350 ft.
if you do the math we are looking at $6000-12000.
We are in negotiations at this point. :coffee:
(ps I suck at measuring distance with my eyes) lmao I had no idea 350 ft was not 1000ft. lmao
Hoo boy, biting my tongue here, to keep the forum clean.:cheshire:
Does it have to be the city, or can you use your own contactor, with the city doing the connection probably. And if you use your own contactor, can you just run a 3/4 or 1 inch line for you, instead of a main water line?
DIYliz
04-30-08, 08:12 AM
They said THEY have to do the work. BUT I know they contract the work out!
My brother was just hired onto one of the companies that does their boring (SP).
So, if I am able to somehow set it up to where my brothers boss can do it.....per my brother they will do it cheap.
So, once we find out what they are going to settle on I guess we'll have to just go from there.
My brother was just hired onto one of the companies that does their boring (SP).
So, if I am able to somehow set it up to where my brothers boss can do it.....per my brother they will do it cheap.
So, once we find out what they are going to settle on I guess we'll have to just go from there.