Air Conditioning - High Cool Latch [Merged thread]

Does anyone have this option as part of basic or advanced setup on their Central Air systems. The following is what is does:
If you have a thermostat with menu's for basic and advanced setup, it allows one to choose to either the default choice of low to high speed compressor operation or choosing a temperature from 80 to 110 degrees outside temperature whereas only the high speed on a two speed compressor will run.

My High Cool Latch option is not working either in the default position or any temperature choices. I want to see if I can add any more information for the AC technician when he arrives. If you have this option, does it work well for you?

What t-stat do you have? (Model too)

I never heard of a two stage t-stat letting you pick what temp outside to over ride 1st stage. I'd rather have the long run time on 1st stage for COMFORT than short cycle on and off.

I have a Honeywell VisionPro IAQ t-stat, and will only run 2nd stage as needed.

I asked the technician about whether my thermostat is single or two stage and he said its neither. I don't think thats correct. It's "Bryant"s newest top of the line thermostat. Here's the equipment that is installed.

Evolution thermostat model systxbbuid01.
Two speed Puron plus model 598b condensing unit.
Varible speed Plus 80v model 315 furnace.
Fan Coil (A coil) model cd5axa030014abaa

Sometime this week, the installation owner and a regional manager for Bryant company will set up an appointment to see the problem and try to solve it.
I sent an email to the regional manager asking that they also bring along their top specialist from the factory to help them troubleshoot the electronic control boards because that's where the problem is.

I believe the high cool latch will kick in only after a 5 to 10 minute low speed operation if one chooses a outdoor temperature setting. There are electronic timers on the system to protect the system in case of operator changes in thermostat settings. But as mentioned before, the high cool latch does not work.

Ok, Guess I never been around these Bryant/Carrier T-stat.

As for "locking" in 2nd stage at an outdoor temp or timing , I wouldn't even think about it.. Just let the t-stat bring on 2nd stage as needed...

The thermostat is not controling the staging like its supposed to.
Recently, we had temperatures of near 100 degrees and the second stage still did not kick in. I think its a failure in one of the circuit boards.

I would certainly like to have long run times on low speed if moisture is being removed but thats not the case. Right now, I have a bedroom 5000 btu operating to help in moisture removal and in the basement, I have a portable dehumidifyer running and both of these have brought down the humidity at an acceptable level of 53% at 74 degrees room temperature. But I rather have 78 degrees room temperature at 53% Rh with the central air only.

To All,
Here is some data that was transmitted back to my thermostat while the system was operating in cooling stage:
Cool Stage................Low Speed.
Airflow CFM...............430.
Coil Temp..................86 degrees.
Blower RPM................494.
Static Press...............0.15.

The room temperature was 76 degrees with a humidity of 58%.
The differance in air temperature at incoming and outgoing air was 14 degrees near the coil. This is a 2 ton system that is cooling 1500 square feet of living space. Does anyone see anything wrong with these numbers.

Coil Temp = 86˚

I am questioning that number... Indoor or out door coil?

Is there a sensor going to the coil?

I am assuming the temperature reading I got off the thermostat was from the A coil. I don't know about a temperature sensor unless its inside the A coil cabinet. When I saw Blower RPM, I assume all the readings on the thermostat were all from the furnace controls and A coil. When the compressor is in low speed, the high pressure line is warm and not hot as I expect it to be.
However, there is an "OAT" (outdoor air temperature sensor) located somewhere on the condensor

Here is a clearification of the data I gave earliar:

Stage..................self explanatory.
Airflow CFM..........indoor unit measurement.
Blower RPM..........rpm feedback from indoor motor.
Coil Temp. ..........Temperature of the outdoor unit coil (only available on 2
speed communicating outdoor units).
Static Press. .......self explanatory

Do systems that use R410A (Puron) require a separate set of pressure guages designed specifically for it to check the suction and high pressure lines?

Yes, you don't want the gauges from R-22 system to mix with the R-410a.

Also so you dont mix any of the oil from a R22 to A R410a and you have to charge R4110a as a liquid only. Its a mix .

Thanks to both.
Am I also to assume that if the techician used the wrong set of gauges thinking it was a R22 system that there would be an error in his readings. And I hope he did not use the wrong set but will check his gauges on his next visit. The gauge set should indicate on the face which refrigerant is to be used, correct?

No, that is not correct.
Although the recommendation is to use a separate gage set for 410A pressure is pressure.

If you have a problem with his service it would be better to just ask a direct question rather than look over his shoulder.

What problems are you having that you need to be concerned about this?

I have a "Bryant two ton, two speed AC and varible speed Heating system with the Evolution control.
The manufacturer claims this system will give perfect humidity.
Here's what is wrong:
1. With temperatures in the low to mid eightys, the AC performance is acceptable but the humidity removal needs improvement.
2. With temperatures in the high eightys to high ninetys with high outside humidity, the house still cools down but there is insufficient moisture removal and my humidity monitor only moves down 2% when the compressor operates in low speed. The air entering and leaving the evaporator shows a 14 degree differance. Now this is a two stage system, when high ambient temperatures exist, the second stage is supposed to kick in. But I have checked my thermostat service menu many times to see what stage was operating and it is always on low speed.
The system is supposed to do this automatically in hot weather. I have to manually forced it into high stage by lowering the thermostat 5 degrees. After that, the evaporator temperature differance of the air is 20 to 22 degrees and then plenty of moisture is removed. Others have told me that even in low speed (first stage) the differance should always be at least 20 degrees. Now if that's true, then thats the heart of the problem.

3. There's an option on my thermostat menu called "High Speed Latch" which does not work. What this does is: It give you the default option of leaving things as they are and the system should kick into high speed after running on low speed , but only if high ambient temperatures exist. Or one can choose any desired temperature of 80 through 110 degrees whereas the first stage is bypassed and the system only runs on high speed. This is a good option to have when one has a lot of guests.

4. The installing dealer already knows about this and is dragging his feet and the regional manager for "Bryant Distributors" also knows about this and I am trying to pressure him to lean on the dealer to correct the situation.
The dealers technicians are told the exact thing I just told you and the only thing they do is hook up gauges to the system and also check the amperage and they all say theres nothing wrong. I don't think the technicians know how to troubleshoot the electronic circuit boards in the system.
I think the problem may be in the communication system between thermostat, furnace controls and the compressor.
But only a knowledgable technician would know how to troubleshoot this.
So far, it appears the dealer does not care about my problem as he was in my neighborhood installing a system and did not even stop by to give my system a quick look over and discuss the problem.
It also seems to me that the compressor will only operate correctly if it receives the correct commands. Somehow these commands from the thermostat are getting screwed up.

Ok,

I merged your previous question on this same piece of equipment.
Please keep all your questions in one thread.

It is very hard to offer a solution without being there.
This is complex equipment but a simple thing like a dip switch if it has one or a minor setting could cause what you are experiencing.

You really need to contact Bryant and explain what you are telling us.
Bryant is a line of Carrier equipment and Carrier has bent over backwards for me whenever I have had a problem or concern and I would be very surprised if they did not help you.

The only caveat to this is if the installer bought this unit outside of "normal" channels.
Even good equipment makes its way into the wrong hands.

Bryant's technical support did mention to me that they would contact the dealer about the possibility of changing a dip switch setting to lower the speed of the furnace but the airflow coming out of the registers seems low enough as it is. I am only asking for what the Bryant company advertizes for my system and that is "Perfect Humidity". Now according to a comfort chart, a room temperature of 77 degrees and 50% Rh is almost dead center on the comfort zone for summer cooling. Right now the dry bulb temperature is 75 degrees with a wet bulb temperature of 67 equals 66% Rh. So if dead center is almost perfect humidity at 77 degrees, then its easily seen that my wet bulb temperature is way to high, indicating to me, too much water vapor in the air and not enough of it being removed. I hope the company can convince the dealer to resolve this issue as his technicians would not address the problem. The dealer may have gotten mad when I contacted Bryant direct. Well that his fault, when two of his technicians tell me everythings ok, when thats not the case. maybe I will hear from both the company and him next week hopefully. Thanks for listening.
P/S I purchased a mason's hygrometer and used it to calibrate the thermostat humidity level that is displayed and found that it way off by at least 10%. So a reading of 56 % was closer to 66%.

Dont know the unit you have there. But on lots of units with the V/S blower You control the humidity from the tstat or with a humidistat. This will slow the blower down to pull more humidity out of the air. Then when its down to what its set for the blower will come back up on high.
That 430CFM for a 2 ton unit is low most units run about 400 cfm Per ton

<That 430CFM for a 2 ton unit is low most units run about 400 cfm Per ton>

That would be for a single speed compressor, would it not? Just double checking.
Also I do have the option of choosing the humidity setting on my thermostat to as low as 46%, but when I set it for 52%, the best the system can do is give me a room temperature of 76 degrees at 66% Rh. Earlier, the humidity monitor reading on the stat was 56% which was wrong when I took a reading from my Mason's hygrometer (both wet and dry) and determined that the real Rh was 66%. So I calibrated the thermostat to the real Rh.

While searching through the local yellow pages for HVAC companys, I only found two that list their qualifications, such as ACCA, RSES and NATE.
Now that seems like it may be a big oversight. After all, it would serve the company to advertize their employees qualifications. Now why would they leave an important thing like this out of their ad's?
So in order of important qualifications, which of the three is the best qualified and which is least?

What would happen if those employees with those certain qualifications were to leave? Now the company would be advertising something that is not true. Also, I'm pretty sure the laymen looking for a HVAC company has no idea what any of those qualifications mean, like myself.

For someone who does know what they mean, can ask the company what qualifications their employees have.

The best qualification is experience. And ..... the ability to read the manufacturers instructions.

I doubt that they advertise membership in these organizations as a qualification.
These are trade organizations that offer different programs.

RSES of which I had been a very active member before leaving my home city is educational based.
Commercial memberships are offered so that companies can encourage its refrigeration trade employees to belong.
They promote training and education and hold monthly meetings where guest speakers will bring the group up to speed on new developments and even basic theory refreshers.
They offer many training courses and have a membership designation that indicates a certain level of achievement.
Before leaving for the bush I was able to get a CM designation which is their first level before the different specialist certificates.

Membership in this organization and completing any of their courses does not guarantee you will get what you are expecting when you call them to service your equipment.
It could indicate though that anyone that belongs and goes to the trouble to participate in their programs and take the courses might be a bit more into the trade and interested in learning.

I have no firsthand knowledge of NATE and they are similar to RSES but are fairly new as far as I know and quite commercialized.

ACCA is a contractor's organization who also offer training and their own certification.

A company advertising any of these organizations doesn't really mean anything.
It would be their level of participation.

Ask one who advertises RSES how many of their staff are members themselves, how many of them attend monthly meetings, what courses they took and which RSES certificates they have.

We have over 80 guys that have at least passed the NATE core test. While I think that is great I believe having on the job experience and being able to tell customers what they need (instead of what would bring in more money) far out ways any paper that says you did this or you passed that. Ask any body in our area what is NATE and I bet they will not be able to tell you.

I was thinking that these trade certifications were like a step up in education from the lowest to highest. Still it would be great if one knew before hand, the experience and training, the tech has had. Thanks to all. I am trying to find a excellent troubleshooter of these new puron 2 stage air conditioning systems as I am getting nowhere fast waiting on the "Bryant" district manager and the installing dealer to address a problem that actually started two years ago and dealer knew about it and has done nothing to resolve it. The problems are posted in the "High Speed Latch" thread. So if anyone knows someone that is very familiar with these systems in the Philadelphia, Pa. area, just PM me. I would appreciate it. When technicians just hook up a gage and ammeter to the condensor and say everythings ok, well what the heck; My complaint has more to do with the furnace control settings, dip switches or whatever, that sends commands to the compressor.
The dealer only gave a 30 day guarantee on his workmanship. The factory has enough confidence to give a 5 year warranty. This tells me that the dealer don't trust his own workmanship. I should have ask and got a one year workmanship warranty before I signed.

I am not certain but I think the State of PA requires at least 90 days.

Again, I will say that Carrier who makes Bryant is usually quite attentive when a customer has a legitimate complaint about their equipment.
If the Bryant rep is not being helpful can you think of anything you could have done to alienate him?

I would suggest that when you contact Bryant that you concentrate on the problems you are having with the performance of the system in general and how it is not cooling the space.

As far as finding a tech that can help you based on the sign on the door isn't going to help you.
I can honestly tell you that the way technology is changing even a competent tech on the unit you have may not have a clue about what you are talking about.
This equipment is changing fast enough that unless he runs into this problem he may never become familiar with your problem.
Computer control is generally so reliable techs don't generally spend a lot of time worrying about it.

Call Bryant and keep your description of the problem simple and don't mention anything about latching.

*Thread merged (again)
Please keep all your questions about your system in the same thread regardless of the opening question!

By GregH,
<Again, I will say that Carrier who makes Bryant is usually quite attentive when a customer has a legitimate complaint about their equipment.
If the Bryant rep is not being helpful can you think of anything you could have done to alienate him?>

Yes, I told him how frustrated I am in the lack of progress reports as to when my problem can be addressed. I reported this directly to Bryant customer service and my complaint was filed on Aug. 22nd. After two weeks, I told him that I do not want to resort to legal means to get the problem resolved which is anyones right when consumers detect footdragging somewhere in the chain of command. If only a date was setup for an inspection and testing the system performance were given, then at least, thats some progress. Now that cool weather is almost upon us, how are they going to mimic hot days with high humidity to test the performance?

I wonder if I should have contacted Carrier instead of Bryant?

A Manufacturer/Distributor of HVAC equipment claims perfect humidity on their heating and cooling products.
I checked a comfort chart and the comfort range is 30 to 60% for cooling from temperatures of 74 to 82 degrees.
So using a comfort chart, it appears that at a temperature of 78 degrees and a relative humidity of 45% would be located about dead center of the comfort range. Now how many HVAC technicians would agree that this is perfect humidity? I would agree and would like to know your opinion.

That is quite the wide range they list. Sounds almost like weather forecaster afraid to commit and says partly sunny with a 40% chance of rain. Or something. You may as well stick your head out the window and just see.

I think that 82 at 60% is getting kind of tropical feeling, personally. 45%/78 -degrees. Better, obviously.

Now I recently read a newspaper article about the huge increase in our local area children receiving perfect attendance awards for school. Yup then it went on to explain that a child can still miss some days of school and have PERFECT attendance as long as they have a good excuse for their absence. So I would say that perfect humidity would be 45% humidity plus or minus maybe 15% as long as there is good excuse for the 15% off. Just think, we may actually live in a PERFECT world and we were just keeping score wrong all along. Hmmm.

On my system, I keep the temp at 76˚ at all times. Humidity set at 45% slowing the blower, and 50% for overcool up to 3˚.

On a really hot days when the system runs steady, I see it go as low as 40%.

That is perfect humidity in my book.. Anything over 50% is a breading ground for mold.

In the winter, I keep it no more than 40%, I have "Frost Guard" set up, so it will see how cold it is outside, and control the humidity up and down as needed.

ecman51,
<think that 82 at 60% is getting kind of tropical feeling, personally. 45%/78 -degrees. Better, obviously.>

That's the high end of comfort for some people but not most.

Just play with your setup, when you find it feels good to you. Let it alone and be happy. ;)

Your thread prompted me to go out to my vehicle to try to find my thermometer/humidity gauge. Not sure where it went. So I went over to one of our local X-mart stores, minutes ago and bought one that was in the middle reading of all the other ones there. It has now equalized in the house, and it says 74 degrees with 45.5% humidity in my upper midwest location that was clear skies yesterday, a little rain last night, and partly cloudy and fall-like feeling out today. Feels good.

There is no such thing as perfect humidity for many of the reasons already stated.
Another thing is something as simple as a persons activity level will throw the "perfect humidity level" out the window.

If for example you had a level of humidity that you found comfortable while you were sitting idle, say watching tv.
If you were to increase your level of activity to something like doing minor housework a normal person will begin perspiring a very slight amount.
When you perspire at the higher humidity level you would find comfortable for idleness you will feel uncomfortable when sweating because the sweat will not evaporate as quickly on your skin and you will be uncomfortable.

Another thing that throws a wrench into the humidity topic is the fact that relative humidity is just that, relative but I'll leave that one alone.

GregH,
<There is no such thing as perfect humidity for many of the reasons already stated.>
Perhaps an over zealous statement from the manufacturer/distributor as they are using it in their brochures.
I am visiting various forums to get opinions on this as I think I may have to use legal means to get my air condition problems fixed as the regional manager and the installing dealer have not contacted me to address the problems. I am told that Carrier/Bryant are quick to act on customer complaints and I find it not so, in my case.

ecman51,
<Your thread prompted me to go out to my vehicle to try to find my thermometer/humidity gauge. Not sure where it went. So I went over to one of our local X-mart stores, minutes ago and bought one that was in the middle reading of all the other ones there.>

I did the same thing at a Radio Shack. I got what I paid for. JUNK. I threw it out and purchase a Mason's wet bulb-dry bulb hygrometer.

Moderator note:

You have been asked several times to not start a new thread when posting on your problems with this piece of equipment, regardless of the title of the question.
You have the opportunity to have questions answered by people who are professionals in their field who receive no more than the pleasure of helping others.
Your insistance in starting a new thread each time you have a different angle on your problem with your installer wastes a great deal of time for the people who answer you by not giving them complete story.
We answer enough questions here that we can't be expected to remember your problem.

My opinion of the whole story is that you are right in that the manufacturer makes a mistake in giving their customers too much information.
It sounds like now that you have too much info and might be thinking too much into this and I can see maybe why the dealer and Bryant are not being too responsive.

I mean no disrespect but have to say that your installer may be reacting to their inability to deal with you personally.
I have been in this trade for many years and can say that no matter how much I learn about the nuts and bolts I find that sometimes people offer a problem with no apparent solution.

I think that your signature line says a lot:
"If you are a follower and not a leader, then follow those who know how to take a losing arguement and make it win."

Toss out the manual and just tell them it ain't cooling right!


Again, I mean no disrespect, I am just trying to help and again, don't start any new threads on this.

GregH,
I will give the dealer one more chance to solve this. But his technicians insist on going straight to the compressor to check the low and high speed pressures. The pressures according to the technician are within the specifications. But its the commands at the thermostat that are not being accepted. This system when in low speed compressor should be able to remove excess moisture and it does not. I been told that the temperature differance of the air before and after the indoor coil should be at least 20 degrees. I measure 14 degrees while its in low speed compressor. This system will not go into high speed compressor automatically even when temperatures are in the high ninetys. In order to get high speed compressor, I have to force it by lowering the thermostat and then I measure 20 to 24 degrees and this removes plenty of moisture. On past service calls, his technicians would not go any further then checking the compressor.
I will see what develops on Monday, after I talk to the dealer. Thanks for the help and I will not be adding any more to this thread as you requested unless someone ask for further information.

I hope the dealer helps.

To clarify, I did not suggest you don't ask any more questions.
I asked you to post any further questions on this a/c here in this thread rather than starting another one.

Good luck.

Update:

I talked to the installing dealer today to get his take on my problem. he was aware of it and told me that he has done all he can and my situation requires a Bryant engineering technician to troubleshoot the electronics. He also said that he is awaiting a call from them as to when a Bryant Factory engineering tech can be available to come to my home with the installing dealer to assist him in troubleshooting.

I sent an email to Bryant asking why they are dragging their feet in not responding in a prompt manner as to when a tech will be available. My complaint was filed August 22 and this is more then enough time for them to set up an appointment with me. But I have not receive any progress reports on my file and I don't even know if they are pursueing a solution. So today, I told them they have until the end of this week to contact me and set up an appointment or I will file suit.
This is something I do not want to do but when consumers are shut off from progress reports on their complaints, then the only thing left is to file suit.

Update:

Today, the dealers technician and a field manager came to trouble shoot the AC system.
The field manager told me the problem was found as to why I had little or no moisture removal in low speed compressor. It turn out that a TXV as pictured in the install instructions was not installed because: (Quote Instructions) Puron fan coils and furnace coils come factory equipped with a bi-flow, hard shutoff TXV specifically designed for Puron two speed units. No TXV changeout is required. Note: FK4 and FC4 fan coils are equipped with an R22 TXV. If either of these fan coils is used on a Puron air conditioner, the R22 TXV must be replaced with a factory approved Puron TXV. (Unquote)

So it appears the dealer may have missed this important note and used a FK4 or FC4 indoor coil and not realizing he should have change it out for a factory approved TXV.
The existing furnace coil setup has a Nut with a number stamped on it and inside this Nut, I believe there is some type of metering device (like an orifice) to control the high pressure side as it enters the coil.
I hope this all makes sense as I only understood bits and pieces of what was wrong. The technician said "this should not have happened" and he will make arrangements with me to come again to install the TXV.

As for the High Cool Latch, the field manager said that it is a control problem and will provide a replacement thermostat.
So I hope they are correct in their diagnosis.

So if an AC or Heating problem crops up that the installer
has difficulty finding a solution, then there's always a field representative available if you request to speak with them at customer support. Get their direct phone number, so that you can follow up on future observations and progress reports on your complaint. He will work with the technician to find the solution. Good Luck.

This is how it should have played out from the beginning.

I think the dealership is a bit embarrassed that a consumer with no AC training persisted for them to find a solution and they thought they had it right, the first time. It took two years for them to find out a mistake was made. This is another case of foot dragging with no attempt to double check all parts of the installation by the install manual.