Lighting, Light Fixtures, Ceiling and Exhaust Fans - Confusing Light Fixture (for me at least)

Hi all,

First time poster and electro-peasant here. I'm trying to install a new light fixture (with a white, a black, and a ground) in my kitchen. I dismantled the old one and neglectfully seperated what was joined in the ceiling. I could have sworn a black and white from the ceiling were connected together. When I tried doing that again, the light worked, but I couldn't turn it off with the light switch. Anywho, now that I've messed all this up, this is what's in the ceiling:

There's three wires that come out of one end. A white, a black, and a red. Then there's another one beside it with just two blacks. In the light switch on the wall I see a white, a black, and red.

I've tried it several different ways to no avail. Any help would be much appreciated.

Now you need to tell us how the wires are connected at the switch. All the wires, even if they are not connected to the switch. Provide better detail than you have. Tell us what cables or conduits exist, what wires are in those cables or conduits, and how those wires are connected.

Hi, thanks for getting back to me. I made a little diagram to show, but don't know if I can attach it on this forum?

Anyways, this is what the light switch looks like:

Coming out from the bottom is, 1) a red wire that attaches to the bottom screw on the switch. 2) A black wire that is connected to the top screw on the switch. 3) A white wire that does not connect to the switch but rather to 4) another white wire coming out from the top. Both white wires are capped and are not attached to the switch. The only other wire coming from the top is 5) a black wire that connects to the top screw of the switch with the black wire from the bottom. (FYI - there are two ground wires attached to eachother, one from the bottom, the other from the top.)

Thanks again. Much obliged.

I urge you to draw a picture. if you draw a picture and if you read a book on home wiring, which you should already have done, the wiring will be obvious.


You have power entering the ceiling on the two wires. They are not both black. One is white the other is black.

The white wire is the neutral. Connect it to the white wire to the switch and to the white wire for the light.

The black wire is the hot wire. Connect it to the black wire to the switch.

The red wire to the switch is part of the loop that will bring switched power back to the light. Connect it to black wire for the light.

Connect all ground wires together and to the box, if the box is metal.

I will give that a shot after a work. But let me ask you one question: Are you saying that out of the 2 black wires - which come in to the ceiling together and separate from the black,white, and red group - one is really white, and that I should hook that up to the white wire that's a part of the group of red, black, and white? I think this is what's confusing me; three blacks in the ceiling (two which come out together) and only two blacks in the light switch (each coming in separately).

Thanks again, and sorry for my ineptness. I wish I could show you my diagrams. They're pretty good - at least to me. :-)

The two wires that enter the ceiling together bring in power. one is a hot wire, the other is a neutral. The hot wire is black, the neutral wire is white. Unfortunately as older wiring ages the insulation color changes. If you cannot figure out which is hot, use an analog meter or a two wire tester and test between each wire and a good ground to figure out which is hot.

Three wires carry current to and from the switch. The black and white carry power to the switch, with the white being the neutral and the black being the hot wire. The red carries switched power (hot only) back from the switch.

At the switch the black and white that leave the switch box together take power to another location in the house. The black always hot is connected to the switch and when the switch is on the red carries power back to the light, to make it light up.

..., this is what's in the ceiling:

There's three wires that come out of one end. A white, a black, and a red. Then there's another one beside it with just two blacks.

I think this is why the poster is confused about your how-to, Bob, regarding the black wires, because with one set of them, up in the light box, there are TWO black wires together. Trying to help clarify.

"I think this is why the poster is confused... there are TWO black wires together."

Exactly. It's not the group of red, black, and white in the ceiling (let's call it "Ceiling Group 1") and the red, black, and white group in the light switch ("Switch Group 1"). It's "Ceiling Group 2" with just two black wires in the ceiling and "Switch Group 2" with just one white and one black. There is no discoloration of any wires at either end, I assure you.

Thanks once again.

If the wires are in conduit then someone may have incorrectly (and against code) ran two black wires. However, if the wires are in a cable assembly then they are different colors.

Your setup is one of the following:

Power enters the ceiling box and you have a switch loop to the switch, where power also continues elsewhere.

OR

Power enters the switch box and you have power and switched power running to the light, where power continues elsewhere.

Regardless, of those two black wires, one is a neutral.

Had you left them connected you would know which it is. As it stands now, you need to figure this out.

Regardless, there is nothing unusual or suspect about the actual electrical configuration. There may be a problem if you really do have two black wires in conduit, but this can be sorted out if it is the case.

Yeah, I realized early on that I should have left them the way they were. D'oh.

Hi all,

I've attached a link to two diagrams. The first one is the light switch:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=ZUcxOU1YTmFreEEwTVE9PQ

The second one is the ceiling:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=ZUcxOU1kWkJGR0UwTVE9PQ

Perhaps this will clarify the situation. Once again, thanks.

The situation doesn't need any clarification. Your descriptions were clear enough.

Obviously my instructions weren't. Which part of them don't you understand?

Two blacks and a red for the light's black wire. Two whites (of which one is a black from the set of two blacks) to the white wire of the light. All I have to do is figure out which of the two blacks is really neutral. Unless I'm missing that, your instructions were clear.

Thanks!

Yes, you need to determine which oif those two black is the neutral.

First determine whether power enters at the switch box via the black and white cable, or whether power enters at the ceiling via the two black wires. Do this with a volt meter or two wire tester.

If power enters via the two black wires at the ceiling, then determine the hot wire using your tester and a good ground.

If power enters via the light switch box, then your task of determining the neutral is a little more challenging. You will have to check at the other end of those two black wires.

You should already know what is on this circuit. But you can figure it out by leaving the wires disconnected. Then when you learn where you have no power, open the junction boxes and find the connection that has two black wires and make your tests there.

When you do find the neutral at the ceiling, I recommend that you mark it.

Got it working, thanks for all your help.

Glad it's working.

What did you find out in the tests you conducted?

Well, I figured out that there's another light fixture that's connected to the circuit - it's upstairs in the loft area.

As it stands, I can't use the kitchen switch to turn off the kitchen light. But I've got the light which is crucial. I've got a friend who's going to come over and figure out why the switch isn' working.

You didn't wire it properly. Go back through and wire according to the directions we gave you several times.

I assure you I did. Checked it numerous times. Two blacks and a red for the light's black wire. Two whites (one of which was a black from the set of two blacks) to the white wire of the light.)

Sir Charles: If you had wired it properly the switch would be working. Did you get it figured out?

We figured it out. It was just the red wire by itself that had to be connected to the black wire of the light. The other two blacks connected to each other, but not to the wires of the light. That third mysterious black wire was, as Bob said, really neutral and it connected to the white wire of the light.

The thing that threw me off was that when I was asked if I knew what to do, I wrote:

"Two blacks and a red for the light's black wire. Two whites (of which one is a black from the set of two blacks) to the white wire of the light."

It was confirmed that this was correct when it wasn't. It should have been:

"The red wire - and only the red wire - to the the light's black wire. Two blacks to eachother (but not to the black wire of the light). Two whites (of which one is black from the set of two blacks) to the white wire of the light."

Anyways, thank you for your follow-up inquiry. Electrical engineering isn't for me. But I've learned a lot.