Solid Hardwood, Engineered and Laminate Flooring - Starting laminate floor project

I have learned so much from this website, and especially this forum. Thanks!

And friend and I will be laying Pergo Select plank flooring in my 1-story ranch. The flooring will extend from the living room, through the kitchen, and into the hallway that leads to the bedrooms. The span is about 47' in total, but it is not straight. Starting in the living room (at one end), the wall runs straight and uninterrupted for about 21'7". Then it turns a corner and jogs over diagonally for about 4'7" (this is a slate entryway from the front door). From here, it runs about 21' (throught the kitchen and down the hallway). This span is very interrupted (coat closet and many doorways). I have included some pictures to help you picture it.

My plan is to have the floor run the entire length of this span without a transition piece.

My question is where/how to start laying the floor. It makes sense to start along the long, uninterrupted living room wall. But how will I extend this into the kitchen and hallway and keep the planks straight?

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

From the living room, looking down the hallway
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=/6a86re2&.dnm=cabare2.jpg&.src=ph

A little further up the same wall
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=/6a86re2&.dnm=e3a2re2.jpg&.src=ph

Now looking back toward the living room
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=/6a86re2&.dnm=22cbre2.jpg&.src=ph

Almost at the end of the hallway, looking back toward the living room
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=/6a86re2&.dnm=33b7re2.jpg&.src=ph

I hope this makes sense. I will be grateful for your insight!
Thanks,
Ted

http://rapidshare.com/files/47582360/Flooring.pdf

(I couldn't edit my first post)??

i couldn't get to your picture. do i have to pay to see it???? :confused:

You should be able to copy the link, and paste it to your browser. The pics are set up in a Yahoo!Pictures album set to public view.
Please let me know if you still can't get them.

Yahoo works but the rapidshare one looks like we have to pay or something. :confused:

Annette, can you see the yahoo ones?

i finally figured out the rapidshare deal.

basically though, you need to follow the manufacturers specifications for maximum limits on run lengths and where to use transition strips.

I, the techno peasant, non guru sort, had no problem viewing your pictures. (Heh, heh, heh). I didn't however, notice a living room shot that helps understand the 4'7" diagonal jog you referred to nor a shot depicting how these areas tie together. In lieu of said pictures, (that I, BTW, have no problem viewing, heh, heh, heh), I'll try to answer this off what I understand you to be saying. If I understand you correctly, the laminate will wrap around a slate entry and continue on into the rest of the area to be covered. Assuming I understand, your plan to start in the living room and square off the one long wall is correct. From there, assuming it all connects, it will be what ever it is unless you use transitions. You won't extend it into the kitchen and hallway and still keep it straight if these areas are at an angle to the living room, without transitions. Either the living room will run straight with the walls and the rest will run at an angle to the walls, or you'll have a transition at the angle break, the planks will run straight with their respective room walls, but the angle where the break in the flooring is will change at that point.

Thanks for your response so far. Sorry this is so confusing...
Here are some more pictures of what I am talking about. The flooring will all be running the same direction. But if I start my first rows along the long living room wall and keep extending them past the living room and into the kitchen and hallway, the line they form will end up about 2-3 feet away from the wall in the kitchen and run down the middle of the hallway. I am worried about keeping this line straight. I am wondering how difficult it will be to work from the middle toward the walls on each side.

Here is the layout in jpg.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=6a86re2&.dnm=19b6re2.jpg

This photo is the "diagonal jog" I was talking about. Probably a confusing and unimportant detail. The slate entryway opens into the kitchen with a diagonal rather than a perpendicular edge. (You can see the living room in the background.)
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=6a86re2&.dnm=d2afre2.jpg

This picture is from the same angle, only from a few steps back (down the hallway).
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=6a86re2&.dnm=e706re2.jpg&.src=ph

This picture is from the living room, looking into the kitchen and down the hallway a bit. See how the walls are not on the same plane?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mrczarnecki/detail?.dir=6a86re2&.dnm=5ac4re2.jpg&.src=ph

Essentially, the long walls from which I would presume to start laying my laminate floor are parallel to one another, but are not on the same "plane" (if that is the correct term). One will be very easy (uninterrupted, in the living room) - - the other will be trickier (very interrupted, in the kitchen and hallway - - lots of undercutting). If I start on one wall <<which one??>> and how do I keep the same line as I extend the flooring rows toward the other wall?
Eternally grateful....
Ted Czarnecki

Actually, your drawing is more useful than the pictures. As I look at the drawing, my suggestion would be to start on the left wall in the living room, next to the field of blue and the "not to scale" words. Measure from there to the opposite wall to determine layout. You might be able to start with full boards or you may want to trim them in order to accommodate the other side. You don't want to get over there and discover you need to install a one inch piece. Determine all that before you start and then act accordingly. Once you've got that figured out, measure three or four rows out from that wall and pop a line that goes all the way down the living room, kitchen, and hall. This will be the base you work from and everything will come off it. This line is the common denominator to all the various areas. In most instances, I don't put in the required transitions because I don't like the chopped up look that creates. But, in your case, you need at least one where the living room and kitchen meet. That is just too narrow a strip and you'll likely have problems there if you don't. I suppose you could not put it in and adopt a wait and see attitude, but I don't hold out much hope. It'll be easier to install a transition now than later, but later is certainly doable. You really should have another one where the hall meets the kitchen, but, that's your call. You're the one who has to do the warranty work anyhow, so a labor warranty is not much of a consideration. The main consideration is, do you want to take the chance?

Thanks for the advice. I will think about the transitions. If I left more than a 1/4 inch for expansion in these narrow areas would that help reduce the chance of problems?
You guys are great!

No, it wouldn't. Imagine a hotdog bun. The part of the bun in the back that is still attached is like that little narrow area and the two halves of it are like those two big rooms. Because you're using a floating floor, the material is able to move. Theoretically, it not only expands and contracts, it will also "walk" to some extent. It's the walking movement that is the potential issue here, just like flexing the back of the bun by moving the two halves, they won't remain together long. Now, I have never seen this happen, have installed lots of this stuff without using transitions in doorways and so on, and have just never seen any walking movement, but the potential is still there. When I install, it's for someone who's paying me to do so and I have to provide a labor warranty. If my work comes apart, I need to stand behind it. If I've done my job according to manufacturers specifications and the job comes apart due to the material and not my labor, the manufacturer is on the hook. But, if I haven't followed accepted protocol and it comes apart, I'm liable for the whole ball of wax. Consequently, if I'm going to deviate from required installation practices, I had better know what I'm doing, and be pretty confident it'll work or it could get pretty expensive for me. With a laminate floor, I may end up going back and installing a transition in a doorway, but the entire floor won't be destroyed over it. That's a relatively minor fix and I'm willing to take that risk in order to avoid the chopped up look of a lot of transitions. In your case, you're the installer and, if you do the job without transitions, the manufacturer will tell you to take a hike if it fails. But, in this instance, how do we define "fail"? Here is the crux of my concern. In most instances I've dealt with, the potential failure is along one short side joint in a doorway. If anything comes apart, it will just be this one joint. In your case, the potential stress is going across all the boards in that narrow area and could act sort of like trying to tear plywood. The stress can be radiated out along several joints and, over time, begin causing gaps to open in several places in that area and radiate out from there. I would think that, once the stress were relieved by cutting across it to install a transition, it could be brought back together, but then again, the connecting mechanism in the joints might be damaged and unable to lock back together. Do you understand the concern here? Once again, it's your floor and your call.

Thanks for being patient with me, Smokey49. I appreciate your time and attention!
If I understand your point, the possible "walking" or other movement of these two large rooms may put an unsustainable force on the relatively narrow stretch of just a few planks in the doorway between them. The forces may begin to pull apart the joints in this doorway over time - - especially on the short sides.

If this separation failure did happen, it may be possible (no guarantee) to cut out a section of flooring in this doorway and install a transition. Hopefully the planks on either side of this transition could be "knocked together" (if necessary) to restore the integrity. Of course this may not work.

Do you feel the same way about the hallway at the end of the run? Movement of the kitchen floor may exert some pressure on it, but there is not a similar pressure from the other side (i.e., no large room at the end potentially pulling in another direction).

My opening between the two rooms is 36" wide and extends for about 19".
The hallway is about 35" wide and extends for about 12'6".

On this matter, Pergo literature says:
"T-molding must be used in doorways and archways four feet wide or less. The only exception is for closets that are 30" deep or less, where the flooring may run continuously."
and
"Areas greater than 66 feet in length or width require a 1⁄2" expansion space around the perrimeter of the room and all fixed objects. Areas greater than 66 feet in length or width, i.e. (one room; two or more rooms with adjoining
archways greater than 4 feet; large room with an extended hallway) must have a T-molding installed across the width of the room, archway or at the
beginning of the hallway to provide additional expansion space."

They also recommend 1/2" expansion space (vs. typical 1/4") for commercial installations - - presumably in consideration of increased floor movement.

For heavy furniture or in commercial installations, Pergo also says that you may use glue with the click system - - presumably for added strength in the face of movement stresses.

Given that Pergo would not require a transition for a 48" opening (about 6 planks) and I have a 36" opening (4.5 planks) - - a difference of about 1.5 planks - - I am inclined to roll the dice and skip transitions. I may add glue to the seams in the narrower areas to increase the strength of the seams.

What would you do if you were me, Smokey?
I'd love to hear from any other DIYers.

Again, kudos to this forum and website!

Sounds like you understand the concern well. If it were my home, I'd skip the transitions and watch that floor like a hawk to see if problems start developing, At the first sign of trouble, I'd install a transition. Hopefully, someone else will weigh in here and, perhaps, present an opposing view with compelling argument. That would give you a broader range of information from which to draw for making any final decisions. One last thing, concerning the expansion gap. I use a little trick to cheat a bit. I remove all the base board. I then cut the bottom of the sheet rock up half an inch from the floor and clean out the resulting void back to the framing plate. Most houses use 1/2 inch sheet rock on the walls. Then, when I install the floor. I don't leave a gap from the edge of the sheet rock to the edge of the flooring material. I lay the flooring even with the outer edge of the wall board. This accomplishes two things. The expansion gap is the gap under the wall board from the edge of the board to the plate, typically 1/2 inch. This leaves a 1/2 inch expansion gap under the wall board. Since the flooring is even with the edge of the wall, the entire width of your base board is over the edge of the floor instead of all but 1/4 or 1/2 half inch. Most base is at least 1/2 inch thick, some even thicker. With the full width of the base covering the edge of the flooring, it makes additional 1/4 round or base shoe molding unnecessary. This gives you more expansion and contraction room than is called for and saves the expense of 1/4 round.

Smokey, thanks for your recommendations, cautions, and tips. We are set to begin working on the floor next week. I will try to post some pictures and a report when the job is finished.
Still interested if there are other opinions/experiences out there as well......