Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - Gas Furnace quote and brand name question

Hi all,

Some advice needed, please.

We live in bay area, California.

We are looking to replace our non-working floor furnace (just bought the house)with central heating unit.
The house is 1189 sq ft. It need 7 ducts including one return.
Sears came by and calculated we need a 90,000 btu unit. We just put new dual panel window with Ar gas filled throughout the house.

I did some research on-line and like Trane, Rheem, and Bryant.
I prefer 2 stages with variable speed.

Now 3 quotes have came in all are to my surprise rather high

contractor #1
quoted me with Bryant plus 90 (96.6% efficiency). Everything cost $9300.
(furnace, 6 ducts (aluminum ducts) and one return, take out old one and replace new one, 2 stage t-stat, permit, etc)
I asked about Trane XV90. He said Trane's unit is not a true variable speed furnace. Is this true?
He can put a Trane XV90 for the same price.

contrator #2
same works as contractor #1
Trane XV80 $8400
Trane XV90 $9400

contrator #3 (sears)
kenmore 2 stages variable spd $14,000
carrier 2 stages variable spd $14,000

Now, my questions are:
#1
is replacing a gas furnace really cost this much?
I mean from what I read on-line, consumer reveiws etc, all have estimated installed price of $3000 to $4400 unit only. Plus ducting work and all say additional $4000 this will be in around $8000 mark.
90K + is indeed a bit much.
any ideas anyone?

#2,
is Bryant plus 90i all that much better than Trane XV90?
Bryant is 96.6%. I mean I don't need to have a top-of-line stuff, just a energy certified one will do. Bryant is a bit overkill for me.

#3
is the brand Carrier good?

========
what is your preference?
What is a reasonable price range in my area?

I do apologize for the long post, but I really need some sound advice.

Please help.

Thank you very much in advance.

First of all I don't believe there's any way on God's green earth you need 90,000 btu/hr to heat that house. I would be willing to wager a tidy sum to say your heat loss would not exceed 1/2 that amount. I strongly suggest doing or having done a Manual J heat loss calculation. There is a very good one available online for about $50 from: http://hvaccomputer.com

I agree with Grady about the BTU sizing. I live in a 1968 1,700 sqft home in Minnesota (Winter temps low as -20) with a Trane 60,000 BTU XV90 furnace.

Also, what size are the supply ducts?? 7 will NOT be enough if you end up with a 90k furnace!

Trane XV90 is a variable speed furnace.. I own it. But, if he is looking at the Bryant Evolution on a Bryant 90i, then it maybe a bit more variable than the Trane XV90. Honestly, I think the Bryant 90i w/ Evolution t-stat may be a bit over kill for you in CA. Also, are you getting Central Air added?

I think the reason for a higher price on your end is a few things.

-All new install, vs a replacement
-Price of metal has gone up
-Run new gas line
-Run new power supply
-Run of new venting
-Labor cutting holes in ceiling for vents.
-Cost of products in Calif. is higher in some area.


Bryant and Carrier are the same company, Just a color diffrent on the cabinet.

Thank you all for answering the question.

contractor #1 said the size would be 60,000 - 80,000 btu.

I asked everyone of them are you going to do a heat loss/gain calculation.
Everyone replied yes. But all they do is measured and wa-la here is the size you need right in front of my eyes without any calculation.

The unit would be installed in crawspace, new ducts, new gas line (maybe), and new power.

I do think that Bryant plus 90i would be an overkill as well.

So you think $9000 is reasonable?

Two more contractors will come out latter this week.

Thanks again.

I have another question,
contractor #1 said all the labors including ducting, old furnace removal, gas line, power line is about $4500.

Which means the furnace itself will cost me $4500 to buy?

Why so much?
on-line reviews all suggest a range around $2000 - $3000.

do you have any ideas?

I couldn't tell you if the $9k is right or not.. But you got two more bids coming so you should be able to compair between the bids you get.. As I said earlier, things may cost more than other area.

Also, crawl space is a very hard area to work since you really can't stand up and do the job, so lot of the time is taking is the labor.

As for furnace price, it may be a bit higher than you may find on line. but when you get it on line, you would get very litttle or no support after you buy it.. Best to get only from the installing dealer only.

Thanks Jay11J.

Tomorrow I am meeting with contractor #1 to discuss any question(s) I may have.

Then just wait till weekend when two contractors are here for the estimates.

Will keep everyone posted.

You mentioned you live in the Bay area. Are you sure you want or need top line equipment??

Hi mbk3,

No, I don't need top of line stuff. I just want an efficient one or the one qualify for PG&E rebate to save some utility bill.

Therefore, I think all the quotes are way too much. I am thinking more around $7k to $8k but can't seem to get an min. of 92% efficiency one for that price.

weird.

I dont recall a furnace have to run a lot out there where you are. Id say go with the Trane XV80 AND that does come in a 2 stage with variable speed blower. This cost ??? will they use ductboard and flex for all the duct work ??? That can kick up the cost in a crawl space. We use metal duct down there with registers in the duct for the crawl space . Then put insulation on the walls with a ploy on the ground. Works like a heat sink.

Hi Ed,

In my area it does get cold in the morning around 55+ to 65+.
my old furnace is turned on around 5am or so when the temp drops.

Spoke with contractor #1 today.

installation details:
new electric connection, new gas connections, cuttings, plenum transition, removal/disposal of existing equipment, 2 stage t-stat, clean work area, new system startup, 5-yr parts and labor, labor and materials, permits, and sale tax.

still with Bryant plus 90i, 60k btu unit, with electronic air cleaner, 5 ducts with 1 return
all $9300.

with Trane XV90 $9300

seems like price is firm. darn expensive.

will meeting with 3 more contractors the next couple days and see what I get.

Ed does have a point.. 50's is not even cold.. If your temps gets down to the 30's and below for a long time, then the 90% is worth while... Unless your current gas bill is $100+ a month.

Honestly, if your temps only dips down into the 50's in the winter, I'd even go smaller... say 45k. I have a 60k in my home and our winter days time high in the teens, it always runs in the 1st stage, then when it gets -15 and colder then 2nd stage kicks in.

yeah, that sort of make sense.

Now, for north bay area it is constantly in the 50's range in the morning through out the year occasionally with lower 30's in some winter days.

my attic is not insulated, so does my walls. 80 years old house, not much of insulation.

I just got all the energy efficient stuck in my head. Maybe I need to shake that off?

Get that attic insulated before I even look at a new furnace, then redo the Load Calc.

http://hvaccomputer.com/talkref.asp

The attic is about 1.5 to 2 ft tall.
It is an old house with flat roof, 1189 sq ft.

how much do you think it may cost?

All I can say is that you are going to need about 15" of blown insulation in the attic, and you can do this pretty cheap/easy. Our Home Depot rents out the blower for free when you buy X amount of insulation.

I don't know what a bag will cost right off hand. but I can get back to you.. As for a Pro to do it, I have no clue.. Never had it done that way.

Does your roof/attic have vents to help keep it cool and dry?

update:

contractor #4 came today. He offered exact same thing i.e. same model, and everything else as contractor #1.
He is 2k less than contractor #1.

This may shed a new light in terms of savings. :)

2 more coming on Saturday.

and
I am setting up appointments for attic insulation. (the above saving can go toward attic insulation.)

man.... the cost up run never ends......

update two.

contractor #4,5 came this past weekend.

Contractor#4 offers Trane XV90 60k btu furnace. 5 yr labor/installation warranty.
$7900 after PG&E rebate

contractor #5 same as contractor #4 but 10 yr warranty.
$6700

As you can see the dollar amount change drastically from first three contractors. I think $7000 is about as low as it gets.

I think I will go with contractor #5 after I do some research on the company.
After all price is not what determine who gets the job. I still need a reliable company.

is the 10 year on parts and labor?? or just on parts?

Are they doing a two stage t-stat as well?

as far as I understand it, it is 10 yrs parts and labor.
I specifically ask him.

I believe it is 2 stage t-stat. I will insist for one at least.

Is the electronic air filter worth it?

thanks

one additional note.

Any suggestion for the filtering system?

is Trane CleanEffect system lives up to its claim?
or I should just go buy traditional HEPA room air filter?

Thanks

sorry, too many questions.

If you have allergy or issue with pollen, then the CleanEffect will be good. but I don't recall you getting A/C?

If you are not, then honestly, you are best to go with a Media Air filter system like Honeywell F100 or F200, or AprilAire 2200/2400. Those filters only need to be changed out once a year. Otherwise, you are going to need to go down in the crawl space, I don't think you'll enjoy going down there every month to clean the cells.

I have the Honeywell Media filter, I am pleased with it, my parents got the CleanEffect, and mom is able to breath with her asthma issues, and been pleased with it as well.

Good to see that you do want a two stage t-stat. Honeywell TH8320/Trane 802 are a good match with the Trane furnace.

Yeah, I have seasonal allergy. It gets pretty bad during spring and early summer.

I will check on aprilaire 2200.

Thanks for the info.

The furnace goes in this weekend.

If it turns out that the air filter is going down in the crawl space, is an area that has room for you to sit up and change out the filter? If not, then go with the Honeywell. it just one large filter that your pull out and replace with a new one. AprilAire is a filter that folds down into a smaller box and a few steps.. You'll need room to do this.

I ordered Aprilaire 2400 to go with Trane XV90.
filter I ordered online for $200.

The crawlspace has plenty of room. I go down there often to check things out.
(we are fixing up the house.)

They will start the job today.

You order the whole unit for $200 or just the air filter?

Can't the dealer get it for you and be part of the install?

the air filter unit is $200.

contractor asks $300 for it and the dealer does not have it in stock.
So I ordered it on-line, free shipping, 30 money back guarantee.

The dealer was OK with you doing that?

Take some before and after photo for us to see.

yeah. the contractor let me do that. He put one in just to make the unit work until I get the new one which is due in next week.


they are finishing up the job today. I will only be able to take the "after" picture.
We are moving so almost everything including my photography kit is in the storage.

ok, cool.. Good luck with the move, and keep us posted.