Homeowners Associations - Homeowners Association fencing rejection due to non-use of professional installer

I'm looking for advice on how to respond in my situation.

In order to build a fence for my back yard at my new home, I'm required to get approval for the fence from my home owner's association. My fence design was based on the requirements stated, my application was submitted about 45 days ago, yesterday I finally got a response (by phone) that it was rejected, the representative did not yet know why.

Today I received an e-mail stating the following:

Please refer to the Covenants and Restrictions

Article VI - Section 6.4 & Section 7.23 as well as pages 4-6 of the COMMON INTEREST AND COMMUNITY INFORMATION DISCLOSURE. The work needs to be done by a professional installer / contractor and please submit paperwork from the contractor.

If you have anymore questions, let me know.

Now, what is left out of the e-mail is a) it doesn't state that the application is rejected and b) the "use of Professional Installer" falls under 7.23 a "General Guidelines". Nowhere in the covenent is anything stated about submitting paperwork from a contractor. I'm doing the work myself, and I was told this should not be a problem by the home builder's representative from whom I bought the home.

I'd like advice on how I should respond. My feeling is that as an engineer with experience building high quality fences, I am more than capable of meeting the intent of the guideline, which is that a quality installation should be the end result (which the covenant has no provision for verifying).

I'll just throw my draft response out there as a framework for helping me figure out what to say, and I know that I'd prefer to handle this over the phone at this point, but the lack of availability is a real barrier to doing that. Here's what I have written, but I know this might be a little long.

I am pleased to hear that no objections have been raised regarding the proposed design. As far as I can tell, the "use of Professional Installer" falls under 7.23 a "General Guidelines". Since this is not a question of the design intent and the "use of professional installer" is a guideline and not a requirement, I would appeal to the committee to consider the guideline in light of its intent. Based on the examples included with the CP Morgan Homeowner's Manual, my presumption is that the intent is to ensure that the result will be of suitable quality. I recognize that such assurances may be necessary as the covenants provide no mechanism for verification of end-product integrity.



I would suggest that the committee should consider the following facts in light of the intent of assuring product quality:

1) I am a degreed mechanical engineer with 7 years professional experience. Working with me on the project is my engineering manager from my place of employment whose experience exceeds my own.

2) I am experienced craftsman, having gained experience in a broad range of construction and restoration projects over the past 20 years, including the construction of wooden privacy fence similar in design to that which is proposed.

3) I possess all of the tools necessary to complete the construction properly, equipment in use for this project includes: post level, line level, conventional level, powered miter box saw, table saw, circular saw, drill, power screw driver, pneumatic nail gun, post hole digger, 50' measuring tape and more. The only equipment needed for the project, gas-powered auger, is available by rental from Home Depot.

4) I have computer design tools available for use as needed to ensure proper fit and function of all components.



If the committee is concerned with the quality of my end-product based on observations of my fence work to date, I would respond by stating that as the product is not yet finished, certain aspects that may appear to be of concern are intended to be addressed:

1) Some posts need to be re-excavated, re-levelled and re-set. This is actually a product of the committee's delayed response. My approach has been to delay final set of the posts until approval is received, unfortunately due to high winds and rain, the bracing for some posts was overcome and dirt was washed into some post holes.This will be corrected.

2) Most sections have a board gap on one side. This is because the last board can not be cut to fit and installed until the post is set and bracing removed. This will not be a condition present on the finished fence.

3) A limitted number of fence picket boards have warped and either one end is protruding from the fence or the board has fallen off. This can happen, and all such boards will be replaced. Once the last board is installed in each section, the design accounts for the future potential occurance of warpage by capturing all boards at both ends and the middle.



Completion of this fence is critical to my family's lifestyle, my wife is at home with our children of 19 months and 5 months age and our 80 lb. dog while I am at work 1 hour's drive away. We have managed using a rope secured near our rear door as a means of letting the dog out, but the danger of our dog escaping before he can be leashed is a risk that requires mitigation by completion of a fence enclosing our back yard. This danger was realized on Tuesday of this past week when our dog escaped. My wife was unable to pursue him because she could not leave our children unattended. Fortunately, my wife was able to find him a few hours later when she took the children for a walk in our stroller.



I urge the committee to respond quickly. When deciding to buy the Harmony community property at 10703 Inspiration drive, the absence of a fenced yard was a key concern. That concern was adressed by the fact that the covenant allows for fencing built within certain standards. I was also given assurances that the ACC has turned around approval requests as quickly as the same day they are sent in. Further, I was also assured that I should be able to work around the professional installer guideline.



As I am still paying a mortgage on my property in Michigan, which has not yet sold, I am financially unable to support the hiring of a contractor to construct my fencing. Even if that was not the case, the extra 150% cost does not seem like a sensible way to achieve a result that would not be value-added. I presume that the intent of the guideline is not solely to incur a cost penalty to the homeowner, divert business to the fence-building industry or deny the financially limitted homeowner access to fencing.



Upon approval, I would be able to complete all fence work at a professional level of quality within one weekend (weather permitting). I am certain that any inspection of my finished project will reveal a fence built to professional level quality standards.



As the committee has clearly approved of all aspects of the design, having only objected to the installation method, I hope that resolution can be achieved without requiring removal of work completed to date. At this time, I do not intend to remove the fence and should the fence be removed by order of other than myself, I will pursue a response based on any such act of vandalism.



Please ensure that approval is completed before close of business on Friday, April 20, 2007. I believe the above information should be sufficient to satisfy any of the committee's concerns. Should more information be needed or if there is need for discussion of how to meet the guideline cited, please have a representative authorized to resolve the situation contact me directly on my cell-phone at -----------. I will consider non-responsiveness within the stated timeframe to imply concurance.

I am probably the last person to give you advice but if it were me sending in this letter I would remove this statement.

"This danger was realized on Tuesday of this past week when our dog escaped. My wife was unable to pursue him because she could not leave our children unattended. Fortunately, my wife was able to find him a few hours later when she took the children for a walk in our stroller."

I think that in this case, the less said is the best said. They don't need to know that your dog got out. HOA's can be vindictive and I can see this statement hurting you if that were the case. You don't want to admit this in writing either. IMO


Also, you should remove your cell # from this forum. That's not to safe.

I see you are in Indiana. Hello fellow Hoosier. ;-)

Good luck and I am sorry I cannot offer any more advice. I think you are on the right path and what you have written looks pretty good to me.

G'luck

Thanks, I forgot it was in there. Here's my final draft, while I'd still like more feedback, I think this is pared down to a reasonable length and since the clock is ticking, I need to hit send:

I am pleased to hear that no objections have been raised regarding the proposed design. In the e-mail attached below, referenced is what clearly is given as a guideline, not a requirement. I recognize that such a guideline is needed because a perfect design poorly executed is worse than a poor design well executed. I am confident that my experience (20 years as a craftsman on various restoration and construction projects, including fencing of similar design to that which is proposed), expertise (7 years experience employed as an engineer) and the tools (listing available upon request) I have available will make possible the execution my proposed fence design at a professional level of quality. I will be happy to discuss my qualifications at your earliest convenience by any means you should prefer.

My fence approval request has been submitted for well over 30 days. The fact that my proposal was not rejected immediately seems to suggest that the rejecting may be based more upon actual quality concerns arising from observations of my work in progress than a rigid adherence to the professional installer guideline as if it was a requirement. For the most part, such perceived concerns are likely a result of my construction methods intended to allow for the accommodation of any last-minute changes necessary for approval, and I will be happy to explain what steps will be taken so that the finished product will be professional quality.

Further delays pose a far greater danger to the quality of the finished product proposed in my fence design. It is urgent that I be placed in contact as soon as possible with anyone requiring further information to satisfy any concerns preventing approval of my fence proposal.

For your convenience I am including my cell phone below where you should be able to reach me at most times. Please work with me to resolve this matter as quickly as possible. My goal is to finish construction this weekend based on a mutually agreeable action plan.

Hi:
I have been in similar situation as yours.

There are some guidance regarding installation of fences that most of folks, including us, the family is not aware of, ... such as coding, zoing and others about which I can not remember well, tho'.

I truly understand your urgent concern over the fences. However, if I were you, I would wait for a definite response from Home-Owner's Association. Because, as seeing that my close relative's case which involved to tear down a whole 'Home-Made Shed,' it's needed to be cautious about this. It was because the Shed was NOT met a guidance on which the City Office set.

It sounds like whether you'd choose to play 'safe' or not. Whichever you'd choose, I understand that it's very tough for any one to go through things like this.

Hopefully, someone familiar with installation fences would read your urgency and respond more appropriate answer, soon.

Professional only means you've been paid for that type of work.

Go to a friend's house and do something DIY-er like ... say, a small dog run. Have them pay you for your work - not much, just $50 or something (then you can buy the materials with that $50).

Presto, you're a professional.

I have seen paperwork where contractor meant the person performing the work PERIOD. Why does a contractor have to be someone who does this thing for a living?

Or if your state offers you to file paperwork for a business for a low cost, just register your DIY business so it's nice and official.

It's worth a shot at least ;-)

Hi:
Need to add to my previous post.

In my/our case, we decided to hire professional fence installers, both of who are licenced or certified.

Certainly, we, the family is EASILY able to do the job, ... fence-installer over the weekend. However we, on the otherhand, need to avoid any issues arise after fence-installation, as knowing that after a job was done, a City Office sends an inspector.

For us, after all it's well worth to hire a professional fence-installers who are licenced or certified, although it does NOT come cheap.

If you haven't gotten a permit for your fence yet, get one. The permitting office can then inform you of any requirements that are mandated by the county/city you live in. Provided the fence is built to mandated codes AND the permitted office allows such a fence to be built by the homeowner (some don't) and meets the 'design' element of your HOA (ie you can't paint it bright pink), I don't see how they can deny it.

That was actually one of the first things I wanted to do, but I've been informed that no permits are issued for fences because none are needed where I live.

"Article VI - Section 6.4 & Section 7.23 as well as pages 4-6 of the COMMON INTEREST AND COMMUNITY INFORMATION DISCLOSURE. The work needs to be done by a professional installer / contractor and please submit paperwork from the contractor."

Submit the paperwork as the contractor in charge of the fencing project. Attach copies of license and certification of liability insurance. Keep the lines of communication open. If you are 'a professional installer/contractor' you should have no problems.

As far as I'm concerned, the preferred resolution would be getting approval from the HOA. Since it seems they are concerned about my not using a contractor, and it may be that the concern also relates to my setting a precident for others, I'd just like to make my case to those who make the decisions.

It seems to me that going to the matresses is something I am ready to do, but in no way do I want to be the first one to make that move. The fact is that I have been given no response to my request for approval in writing, and according to their web site "After these documents are sent to Omni they have 30 days to process the request and a letter will be sent to the homeowner with the status of the request." I feel that I have grounds for considering the lack of response to be an implied approval.

The response I received in the original post is the closest thing I have received to a response, yet it does not - in writing - state that my application was rejected nor does it state that I need to stop work.. The only thing the message does is restate what is already in the manual, except that the manual lists it as a guideline which is not listed in the message.

As far as I'm concerned I'm making a good-faith effort to adress all concerns with no regard for whether such concerns are reasonable. I've been more than accomodating to the HOA's lack of responsiveness, and I feel that I've made extraordinary efforts to resolve the situation, but if the HOA continues to be unresponsive to my efforts to communicate, I have no choice but to consider the HOA to be in agreement that my good faith efforts to adress their concerns are satisfactory.

At this point, I've sent the message. According to the automated response,
"Your thoughts, concerns and suggestions are very important to us. Your
email will be reviewed by the Board of Directors and you will be
responded to in most cases within 48 hours.

Our goal is to unit the community together."

And somehow, there's a joke to be made about unitting a community together, but I'm an engineer, not a comedian.

The thing is that I'm not a licensed and insured contractor.

Here's what the fencing standards actually say:

(a) General Guidelines: The following guidelines are applicable to all Lots within the Development:

...

(v) Use of Professional Installer. A professional fencing contractor must be hired by the Owner, at such Owner's cost, to install approved fencing for such Owner.

So is it a guideline because it's in a section of guidelines? Or does the use of the word 'must' override, making it a requirement?

Also, the application provides a section where you check one of the following:
The project will be done by:
- Homeowner
- Contractor(s) Name ________
- both

I checked Homeowner.

The application states "The Board/Architectural Committee is allowed up to 30 days from date of receipt to approve your request."

The request was received on 3/12, the response in the original post was received 4/19. That would be 38 days.

Ugh. That's frustrating. Sorry you are having to go through this. Good luck.

Move! This is just the beginning of your problems. :cheshire:


You are clearly overqualified to live here. (actually, good luck. You'll get past this)

Not surprisingly, 48 hours have come and gone, no response has been given me written, by phone, by e-mail or otherwise. I've prepared the following response, and I'll try to finish the fence tommorrow:

To whom it concerns:

As you may be aware, the automated response to e-mails sent to this address suggests that a response will be made within 48 hours. It is well past 48 hours after the e-mail included below was submitted and there has been no response.

As you may also be aware, the application for architectural changes states "The Board/Architectural Committee is allowed up to 30 days from date of receipt to approve your request." You also must know that my request was sent by fax on March 12, 2007. Throughout the course of the 30 days, I made numerous attempts by phone and e-mail to find out the status of my request, but ultimately I never did get a response, and while there did seem promise that a review was going to take place, none panned out until I received a call on Weds., March 18, which by my count would be 38 days.

I can only assume that once 30 days has elapsed without a written response to the contrary, this implies approval. From phone discussions with ***** representative for the ***** community, *********, it seems apparent that the board is aware that construction of my fence had begun at the time of the March 18 phone call.

I would further note that on page two of the application, an area is provided for noting whether the work is performed by Homeowner, Contractor or Both and that my application clearly indicated "Homeowner." As it would only take seconds to find this information, it seems to me that any concern with this aspect of my proposal could very reasonably have been made within 30 days of my application's submission.

Know that I am writing because I believe we have a common interest, that projects affecting the exterior appearance of homes in the ****** should conform to certain standards. Because this is important to me, I have attempted and continue to attempt to get your input regarding this project. I have held progress on the completion of my fence to this point because I have been under the impression that the homeowner's association board of directors has concerns that need to be addressed.

At this point, however, another proposed deadline has passed, and I can no longer allow the non-responsiveness of the board of directors or other such parties to delay the completion of my fence. I have acted in good faith to try to understand the board's concerns, and in the absence of any explanation, I can not understand them, let alone take any action to address such concerns. Nevertheless, know that even after the completion of construction, I welcome feedback regarding the design and quality of construction and will be open to the possibility of changes and repairs that I can reasonably accommodate within the constraints of time and money available to such work.

I would point out that as the fence construction has begun, is near completion and only requires time and effort on my part to complete. Completion by my hiring professional help would require money that I do not have available. Until my home I moved from in Michigan sells this will continue to be the case. Consider the fact that mandating this kind of delay serves no positive purpose.

It has been suggested that the board of directors may seek a court order to remove non-conforming fencing. As outlined above and below, grounds for such action may be disputable. Acting on such disputable grounds may leave recourse for damages resulting from such acts.

Let us find a resolution that does not resort to negative actions. Quite frankly, I believe that by completing my work, whatever concerns may exist regarding my workmanship will have been alleviated.

MODERATOR NOTE: Names edited

Hi:
In my suggestion, .... try to explain about your situation truthfully as written the following to the Homeowner's Association, *If* there is some issue after the fence-installation tomorrow:

-----------------------------------
(1) 48 hours have come and gone, no response has been given me written, by phone, by e-mail or otherwise.

and;
(2) Completion by my hiring professional help would require money that I do not have available.
---------------------------------------
In my knowledge, there is some 'waiver' or consideration/leniency if there is/are good reasons for.

Good Luck to you!

After being involved in home owners associations and being on the board and architectural committee, I would guess that there is more to the situation than the just a fence and a dog getting out.

There are others feeding the board information or complaints.

Just because you are a mechanical engineer enginner means nothing since you could not legally sign a civil plan. Acting like an amateur attorney also rubs your neighbors the wrong way. If your neighbors have to pay to hire an attorney, you have just made it worse.

Talk AND listen to your neighbors.

Dick

That's not the case, though, since this is a new community and at this point, the homeowners association is being run by a management company and architectural approvals are coming from a board of directors comprised of personnel from the developer. Neighbors have nothing to do with it, and it's the complete lack of any feedback that makes it hard for me to know what I need to do.

I'd change the style of the fence if there was an objection and at this point I've even proposed that I'd be willing to discuss hiring a contractor to add 12" of lattice on top of my fencing at a later date when my finances allow, but again... I make an effort to understand and/or resolve the situation and get no response.

I've usually had to deal with a management company that represents the homeowners association in situations like yours..... It actually makes it pretty simple... I avoid letters/e-mails and speak in person with the folks at the mangement company - which is friendlier and faster... They have acted as a go between/expeditor to the process when I've needed HOA reponses....

Maybe there's some comfort in my situation being somewhat unusually difficult, I usually do try to call, but usually get voicemail which says for best results, e-mail... which usually doesn't get a response.

Just to update the situation, here's a timeline of recent events:

Since what I posted back on April 18, there has been no communication. I think I sent an unsolicitted proposal I hadn't mentioned here to hire a contractor to add a lattice topper, but that never got any response.

May 17 I received a letter informing me that I must remove my fence and have it re-done by a professional contractor. The letter made claims that the fence looks poor and area residents have complained. The letter indicates the board received the request form on 4/3.

May 17 in the evening, I responded that there are a broad range of options to resolve the situation that I am open to, but removing the fence is not an option.

May 18 in the moring, HOA responded by e-mail that I should call if I want to discuss removing the fence.

6 minutes later, I call and reach voicemail. I leave a voicemail and an e-mail stating that I send e-mails because calling rarely reaches the representative. I asked why it took 22 days from when I was called about the board's denying my application to when I received a letter.

May 18 afternoon, HOA responds by e-mail that we should discuss this by e-mail so there is a written record since it appears I'm "unwilling to rectify the issue regarding the fence" The e-mail documents that the board did not sign the response until 5/7. (even if the 4/3 date matters, this exceeds 30 days the board has to respond)

May 20 I wrote another e-mail, this time I included headlines in all capital letters to highlight 5 different potential resolutions I was outlining:
- One highlights the fact that the delays in responding to my application could imply approval.
- One highlights the fact that I could get a general contractors license for less cost than removing and rebuilding my fence, satisfying their semantics and having the exact fence I have today.
- One suggests working to identify if there are actual quality concerns or if those complaints were based on my fence at its work-in-progress state.
- One suggests that I could change the style of my fence, such as to shadow-box or scallopped, or as previously proposed adding a lattice topper.
- One suggests that the board could be stubborn, obtain a court order to have the fence removed, which I can't afford, and leave me with no financial ability to have a fence, which is a due to my circumstances constitutes denying me a fence - which goes against a key decision point in my having bought this house.
I also pointed out that one could speculate that the alleged complaint was the buyer for the lot next to mine backing out of the deal when they saw my fence and realized that their entire back yard would be sloped, which is much more obvious when you have a fence to show the slope and the end of the property line. If this was the case, then my denial would clearly not have anything to do with my fence, and could constitute a conflict of interest.

This morning, I received an e-mail response (I was out of town on business today) that HOA doesn't want this to turn into anything ugly and hopes we can work together for a reasonable solution. Knock on wood, I think a corner might finally have been turned.

Hi:
I, too agree about your speculaltion, below:

"... the alleged complaint was the buyer for the lot next to mine backing out of the deal when they saw my fence and realized that their entire back yard would be sloped, which is much more obvious when you have a fence to show the slope and the end of the property line."

Also, what you need to do is that you need to explain about a safety of your family situation, such as two young children and a large dog. That must be a critical reason for them to consider. Because, through my experience as a single-family home-owner, ONLY few neighbors have an issue. Most of folks in the neighbors are quite considerate to other's need, both emotionally and psychologically.

Too much compalin about your newly built fence is a sort of harrassment, if no reasonable reason exists. All fences are one way or other, there is minor cosmetical issue, as we all know. If a neighbor does not like your fence, then he/she should build his/her own fence, not see your/neighbor's fence. That must resolve all problems.

Having read and seeing your current situation, I believe your decisiion on building fence is a right one, because 'good fence makes good neighbor.'

Is this a special kind of fence or maybe just a 6-foot privacy fence?

I know a bit about HOAs and how they operate. I'm no lawyer but IMO the contradiction you mentioned (i.e. the word "must" in the guidelines) is the crux of the matter. All else is simply BS. Unfortunately, it will take a court decision to interpret that contradiction. Not even God knows how that will turn out.

My suggestion is to meet in person with the HOA's architectural committee to work toward a solution. If their reason for denial is appearance, have them give you an objective description of the defect and what it would take for a "professional" to rectify it.

Unfortunately, the HOA has money from the rest of the membership, and you don't. Not for court costs, anyway.

It's a 5' wooden privacy fence. More specifically, it's a solid board style that does not have a "bad" side. The covenants only allow 5' tall fencing with up to one additional foot allowed for decorative post caps and lattice. There are a lot of fences that are clearly 6' privacy fences, but I wouldn't presume to know that those homeowners weren't granted exceptions to the covenants or aren't also being asked to bring their fence into compliance. Even if I did know, I don't know that it would be an adequate basis for claiming that the covenants are not being applied uniformly because they are matters of dimensions which isn't the issue being raised with my fence.

Enter the lawyers. Let me just say a few things... I'm not some sort of troublemaker, and to be certain, I don't think that this situation isn't really as bad as HOA situations can be. You could say that lessons learned might be hire somebody to build your fence and avoid buying a home with a HOA, but because of the convergence of circumstances of being unemployed for 4 months right when my daughter was born, much of my situation simply is a consequence of events in my life that are beyond my control.

So anyway, yesterday I received a letter from their lawyer and I'm gathering information for a consultation with a lawyer on my own. In the hopes that that I might persuade their lawyer to recommend the board consider working with me to pursue resolution other than demanding removal of my fence, I've prepared the following statement, which I intend to deliver by phone conversation unless anyone thinks it's safe enough to send it by e-mail:

"Good morning Mr. <HOA ATTORNEY>, I am calling to discuss certain aspects of the letter I received yesterday from your office, specifically the three cited reasons. From your letter, it seems clear that the boards may not have communicated to you the fact that my application was submitted to <HOA> according to the procedure outlined in the fencing manual on March 12, including a request for leniency on the guideline for use of a professional fencing contractor. That aside, I am not discussing the first two until my lawyer has had an opportunity to review the facts of the case and I have had a chance to consult with him.

The third point, where you allege that quote “it simply looks bad, prompting other residents to complain” may be the heart of the matter. I am an engineer not a lawyer, but I can find nowhere in the covenants where a resident has a right to demand removal of a fence because they claim it looks bad. The only basis I can find is that homeowners are required to maintain their fence, but surely in such cases the homeowner would be compelled to repair their fence, not remove it.

I will add that the allegation a subjective judgment that as far as I know may be based on a state the fence was in at a time in the past that has since been remedied. I have actually only received compliments on the fence although I have never sought anyone’s opinion about its appearance, so although I have no reason to accept the board’s claim, I have been and continue to be open to discussion on the matter.

I’m sure that given your statement that “the Association does not wish to litigate this matter” it is reasonable to conclude that if the Association did not believe my fence looks bad, we wouldn’t be talking right now. Unless you expect me to be irrational, it is easy to deduce that if I believed the Association had a valid point – that being the point that my fence looks bad and the only remedy is removal and reinstallation by a professional – that instead a fenced back yard, I would have a neatly stacked pile of used lumber on my driveway.

My goal in contacting you is to urge you to recommend to the Board of Directors to adopt a more reasonable approach and consider alternatives to requiring removal of my fence, such as my proposals to help me identify any flaws that could easily be corrected or (if necessary due to concerns over the aesthetics of the proposed fencing style) rework my fence to a different style."

If you are getting yourself a lawyer I suggest you not contact the HOA further without that lawyers advice.

I agree with Joed. Furthermore, since you have an attorney for this case, I would not communicate with either the HOA or its lawyer. Leave that to the attorney. The HOA's attorney is your adversary and is being paid, partly by your money, I might add, to be such. And as such, he is obligated to do everything in his power to aid his client and that does NOT include acting as an arbitrator in your behalf.

If you were selling a house, how would you feel if the buyer went to YOUR agent and asked him to disclose any information that would put the buyer in a better position??

You are paying a lawyer, get him to do his job. He'll know what to say, to whom, when, and how. Why not just send your letter to him?

And one last thing. Do not forget that the search engine bots scan these posts as well as websites, and you may find a reference to this thread by Googling. If you can find a reference, so can your HOA and its attorney. Better not to write anything on ANY forum that you don't want anybody else to see.

Maybe I should clarify a little... When I say I'm consulting a lawyer, I don't mean that I'm paying one. At work I have an employee assistance program benefit that provides for a free 30 minute consult and I'm using that. My lawyer indicated he may be able to review everything in that time, or at most it could take a full hour and he'd have to bill me for the 30 minutes beyond the free 30 minutes. We are understood that it is unlikely I would want to spend any more than that.

My lawyer has won cases against HOA's. He described a case to me involving a doctor and his sea wall where a hundred thousand dollars in legal fees after multiple appeals, the client prevailed. That's not what I'm after. If I had that money, my fence would have been built by a contractor to begin with. If I had that kind of time to wait to have a fence, I wouldn't have been putting it up the day my application turned 31 days old.

I see myself as being in a situation where I have nothing to lose. I'm already being told to remove my fence, and the only way it can get worse is if an outside company removes my fence, meaning additional cost is incurred by me and I lose the $2100 in lumber that could be reused if the fence has to be rebuilt by a contractor. Unless such damages are recoverable, chances are I'll cut my losses before it comes to that.

I am not a lawyer and have never played one on TV, but just a few things I noticed.

If the application for a fence gives you the option to check you are building it, I would think it implies that a contractor is not required.

It sounds like you made a good faith effort to abide by the rules and keep up with the status. It was the HOA that did not keep its end of the bargain. Had you just sent it and waited 31 days, I would say you have a pretty weak case, but it sounds like you kept trying to prod them along and they did not respond as they were supposed to.

Force them to tell you, in writing, what looks poor about the fence and the specifics of the complaints. You have already offered to bring it up to par, it is they who are unwilling to cooperate. In their mind, the only recourse is to tear down the fence, which is obviously not the only resolution.

If I read what they are telling you correctly, if a contractor puts up a fence, and it looks horrid, that is ok (or are they basing the demand on the fence on the fact someone said it looked poor, in that case, they just empowered you to say someone elses fence looks poor and demand it be taken down).

I am not saying get p****y, and I understand the purpose of the HOA. You have to abide by the standards of the HOA, which it sounds like you tried to do. Those on the HOA board have a responsibility to you as well. You gave them ample time (and more than ample opportunity to shoot you down) and they decided to ignore you until it was too late. Now it appears they want to set an example and make you pay. We have several HOAs in this area like that and I will never live in one.

I am confused. I understand they wanted a professional and there were issues re: communications, etc. You went ahead and built the fence and made every attempt to work with the HOA. But, you built the fence.

Setting all that aside, what is wrong with the fence? Is there anything about it that does not meet the requirements? You mention a fencing manual? Well, did you build it like they recommended? Did the manual demand particular style? Can you post a picture at www.photobucket.com or other and post a link here. You have your forum friends on your side, but we would like a look-see.

I understand the need for an HOA to demand that a professional build a fence, but I've seen some very poorly built fences by 'professionals.' I have seen some outstanding fences, homes, cabinetry, and lots of wonderful woodwork done by people involved in a variety of professions none of which were related to any type of woodworking. For instance, I know a very rich oil and gas tycoon who does all his own wood working for cabinets, furniture, etc. And, yes, last year he built his own fence. Next year he is building a new sea wall. Of course, he is not in an HOA, but his city has very strict ordinances and permits.

You mention others in the neighborhood with fences that do not meet the required guidelines? Drive around and take some pictures. Start building your case.

BTW, what's that fencing manual say specifically about construction requirements? I could understand they'd be upset if you built it out of tree branches and chicken wire.

Who knows, you could have been a professional fence builder in a previous life? I once had a friend who swore that in a previous life she was at Custer's last stand. She had repeat dreams about riding a horse along side of Sitting Bull at Little Big Horn. She was an outstanding equestrian and owned an art gallery.

The only reason I think he may have a leg to stand on is, he did everything by the book. He submitted the paperwork to the HOA, left emails to the HOA (the preferred means of contact), called the HOA for more than an ample amount of time (and more than the time required for the HOA to render a decision), giving them more than enough opportunities to say no. They did not do so.

As twelvepole stated, gather as much information as you can, take pictures, document, document, document.

One thing you could also consider if you know of any nice professional fence builders. Talk to a few of them (most may not do this, but worth a try, we had an electrician do this once), see if they would be willing to "inspect" your fence and write a letter (on "professional fence installer" stationary) stating it was built to their specifications and they would have done it no differently. It may cost you a few dollars (but not much) and it may be worth a try.

I've uploaded my photos to a Yahoo photo album at this link:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/album?c=klopfewr&aid=576460762403472275&pid=&wtok=eHYpGPFsKPttABWDzXsJCA--&ts=1180806984&.src=ph

Documenting other fences is one of my action items that the lawyer asked me to do as the information he'd like to review for the consult, and I'm planning to do that this weekend.

The only guess I can venture about the complaints is that they were received while my fence was a work in progress. I've asked for clarification and received no answer.

If you review the photos, you will see that there is a 2x4 along the top and bottom of the pickets and a horizontal 2x4 across the center. This center board was not installed until late in the project and some boards had warped from drying out, and in some cases the high winds we were getting in early april had blown some pickets out. With the center boards attached, warpage is unlikley and retention is improved.

The covenants include guidelines for aspects of the fencing design such as allowable materials, dimensions and placement but does not specify anything about styles that are allowed or prohibitted. In fact, they don't really say anything about which way the "bad" side must face as I know is often a part of some cities fencing ordinances. Some requirements are more strict for corner or high visibility lots and where easements exist, but none of that applies to my lot. Everything about my fence follows what is in the covenants except for the fact that it was not built by a professional.

One nice thing about my lawyer is that he also has architectural experience, so I'm hoping that he might have a somewhat qualified opinion about my fence design's aesthetics. I can only guess that if there is a problem with aesthetics, it's due to the contour of the terain - not exactly something I can do anything about... And maybe my lawyer can recommend a style that would minimize the visual impact of the elevation changes.

If I knew what style to propose, I could model it in CAD with the house and elevation changes so I could make a more informed proposal about changing the style of my fence, right now I wouldn't know what style to propose and modelling 6 different fences isn't something I can sneak in the time for at work (I pretty well have to do it during lunch, and I'd say it's about a 2-3 hour modelling job)

One more note, some day I'm going to have to work with this HOA again because I'll have to get approval when I put in a swing for my kids and eventually we plan to build a deck, although at least in those cases there won't be any rush so if the board takes three times as long to approve, I can wait, and as far as I know there is no use of a professional contractor requirement for those projects.

Good Luck with your HOA problems. Your neighbors and HOA are trying to micro-manage your property and how you should live. They want to clone all the houses and yards to look the same. The fence is straight and looks good to me but that's just my opinion. It's too bad these people have to stick their noses into your thoughts and ideas regarding how you should do and what you should do. You did all the correct paper work and I am surprised you did not need to get a permit?

I think they have no leg to stand on especially since they did not respond in a timely manner. Your lawyer should counter sue for harrasement and pain and suffering when they tried to force you to tear the fence down. You will see easy they will come to an agreement and the Judge can make sure that you won't have any future issues with your additional projects. The HOA rules would have to be re-written more clearly so this won't happen again.


Good Luck again.

Additionally I would get an appraisal done on how much your type of fence would have cost to have it done by a contractor and how much it would cost to have it removed. From what I can see, the fence stands straight and strong. It also has the right spacing so not to produce future problems if it touches the ground. It won't get water-logged, rot, etc. Lucky for you, they didn't not specify what kind of fences are allowed, but only how tall. This looks like a very new neighborhood so precidence is key. They should have written their laws more carefully when they started the HOA. BTW I'm not a fence expert but I know when I see good quality work. At least IMO. ;)

I have no idea if my HOA experience contains anything useful to you since it was in WV, but who knows?

I became HOA president mostly because nobody else wanted the job. The association was formed in 1989 and consisted of only 50 units. The C&Rs were poorly written and open to various interpretations, but basically included the typical stuff about fences, storage sheds, exterior colors, unlicensed vehicles, antennas, and such. The dues were set by state law at $100 a year, and the provisions for determining if an increase was allowed were so convoluted even my accountant couldn't explain them to me.

One owner in particular was perpetually threatening to sue the board for not enforcing the rules, and a couple of others threatened to sue if we did enforce them. One owner built a fence and dared us to do something about it. Another had an unlicensed, inoperable vehicle in his driveway that had been there for 7 years.

Because I already knew at least one provision of the C&Rs was unenforceable (a ban on outdoor antennas) the board decided to hire an attorney to review the documents and give us his opinion.

The bottom line: because of several changes in state law and lawsuits against overzealous HOAs over the years, our C&Rs were NO LONGER ENFORCEABLE ON PRIVATE PROPERTY! Not a word of them. The only thing the board still had control of was the streets and other common areas.

Needless to say, our resident troublemaker was not pleased.

In Colorado, courts are leaning in the direction that if an HOA has not made reasonable attempts to enforce a particular covenant violation in the preceding year, that covenant becomes void. IOW, if somebody puts up an antenna against the CCRs and the HOA does nothing about it until 2 or 3 years later, the courts will not side with the HOA in that particular case and most likely in future cases as well.

What you say doesn't surprise me. But your example points out another flaw in most modern C&Rs: Under Section 207 of the Federal Telecommunications Act of 1996, HOAs CANNOT prohibit (or otherwise regulate) outdoor antennas.

You're partially right. The "Rule" allows antennas to be installed as necessary for adequate reception of video and internet signals. The Rule specifies conditions under which the Rule does not apply. The rule does not apply to CB, Amateur, and some other antenna types.

The Rule does not forbid HOAs etc. from restricting heights and locations except as necessary to achieve acceptable reception.

But my point was not the installation of antennas. I used that as an example. (The example could have been that of a homeowner leaving a trashcan in front of his garage door, or parking a trailer in his driveway.) If the HOA does not consistently enforce its CCRs, it's likely the courts will not enforce them either.

I read this thread with interest as I mostly agree with the HOA's as long as their rules are reasonable. If one takes a good look around in any neighborhood, you will see do it yourselfers and contractors using their properties for permenant storage for construction debris and junk cars and sometime destroying a nice garden to do it. And these are the same people that invite their friends over to see their nice new neighborhood and home. Well not for long I say. This is the first thing I would look for if searching for a home. I would tell the real estate to show me homes where all the neighbors take pride in their appearance.
I think fences and decks are reasonable if they are placed in the backyard but never in the front. Flower gardens in the front, sides or rear should be acceptable. There are pro's and con's when moving into these neighborhoods. The would be owners should check out the rules before buying.