Alternative Fueled, Hybrid and Electric Vehicles - Electric cars

Electric powered buggies were rolling down Americas streets well before gas powered buggies took over.
The internal combustion engine is old technology.
Today we can make batteries that power everything from circular saws to laptop computers.......who would have thunk it just 25 years ago.
So why oh why can't we develop a battery powered car that will last at least 300 miles before a re-charge and run the A/C, radio and power steering ?
Don't get me wrong, I love internal combustion and I'm no Tree Hugger but just imagine if we could tell the whole Middle East, Mobile, Sunoco, an so-on and so-on to choke on their oil and rid ourselves of our dependence on foreign oil and $ 3.00 a gallon gas.
I know, I know BIG OIL bought up all of the patents and locked them away....I'm not buying it.
It's time for a well built electric powered SUV that can tow my boat.
We (USA) can do this.

They're working on it. There are huge problems still.

One thing I always like to ask those on favor of electric vehicles is; how do you propose charging the batteries. Every form of charging them, at the moment anyway, requires the production of electricity. In some cases, it actually takes more energy to charge the batteries than simply using gasoline.

Ok, Ok, I've been thinking about that to.
I think WE can develop a car paint that is photo sensitive and the entire surface area of the vehicle is sucking up sun light and charging the batteries and then you'll probably need to boost charge it at least once or twice a week at home or while your at work.

One thing to consider is that the energy in 1 gallon of regular gas equals about 22 KWh electricity (running 220 100 watt bulbs for 1 hour), that is a lot of electricity. The only way (really) to improve mileage is to either make the cars lighter or reduce the friction. In a nutshell, no matter what the car, one is going to use a considerable amount of power and that is going to be a drain to the grid if and when the masses see the light (no pun intended).

The 300 mile question was asked (what if you wanted to go on vacation over that amount? Drive 300 miles, find a place to plug in over night and go the next day? Or find a place that swaps out batteries?). If you drove a Prius type car, you may go the 300 miles using only 1400+ 100 watt bulbs for an hour. Do the same in your electric pickup and you can double or triple that.

They would be great for scooting around town (when they are much more efficient that internal combustion), provided only few have them to limit the load on the grid (they will tell you do it at night when there is lower demand... get a reasonable number of cars and night will not longer be right), but for the long haul, high energy drink for your car is the only way to go (that could include hydrogen, fuel cells, etc).

The problem is that, even at $3/gallon, gasoline is still way cheaper than electric, so nobody has put sufficient effort into developing the technology that it will take to make the electric car practicle.

Recommended watching: "Who Killed the Electric Car?". Enlightening documentary.

I'm a floor guy and old time shade tree, so please don't laugh, but, why couldn't an electric car have an on-board generator that charges it as it's going, like an alternator or the old generators did?

Smokey

I've always wondered the same thing! I think it is due to the fact that nobodys ever invented a power generator that made more power than it consumes. I would think that a combination of wind, solar and motor driven generator/alternator would make for less need of plugging in to recharge. But then I'm just an old wore out painter :D

You still need at least 22kwh to get the equivalent of a gallon of gas, you burn a gallon of gas in a generator, you have a net loss. Also, a generator would be quite heavy, which would decrease the efficiency of the vehicle.

Food for thought, based on the 22 KWh per gallon, assuming 10 cents per KWh (approximate current price), that would be an equivalent 2.20/gallon of gas (add on to the the extra capital cost of the electric car and the size limitations as far as doing anything other than commuting), it is not yet cost effective. Gas gets higher, it may become more cost effective, then you will have gas demand go down, price will go down, while electric demand will go up, requiring more infrastructure, not to mention power plants (that use coal, natural gas, things that emit the gas electric cars were meant to eliminate) and the cost of electrical production will skyrocket.

I'm a floor guy and old time shade tree, so please don't laugh, but, why couldn't an electric car have an on-board generator that charges it as it's going, like an alternator or the old generators did?

That would be a perpetual motion machine; people have been trying to build them for centuries without success.

it wouldn;t be a perpetual motion machine because you have to fuel the generator. There are already vehicles that do exactly what smokey pondered only they don;t even use the batteries. Direct generation to an electric motor to drive the vehicle.

You guys have a good discussion going, so I am not going to jump in the middle of it. I am just going to tell you how I solve the high gasoline prices. I have a E-85 4 door pickup. Gas is $250 a gallon, ethonal is $165 a gallon. So as a rule I switch fuels every other tank. So my average price per gallon is $2.07. Now you guys will be asking be why I don't use ethanol all the time. Well sometimes I do, but I am at alot of truck stops and many do not have ethonal yet, so that is why I mix. Besides that I like to sit and drink coffee,
and think. Have a good day. Yes, I know alot of places do not have ethonal yet, but be patient, it is coming. I guarantee it. Oh, one more thing. You cannot store wind energy. It has to be used as it is made. However, in Iowa, there is an experiment of a new type of battery that will store wind energy, but it is years away.

due to the lower mileage from E-85 and the pricing around my area, it actually cost more to run a car on E-85 than on straight gasoline.

I am not going to get involved disputing gas mileage. But, I can tell you that my GMC pickup gets 15.7 miles per gallon gasoline. With E-85 I get 14.9 miles per gallon. 8 tents of mile is nothing. I have also not noticed any of the power loss the newspapers speak of. It pulls my big trailers just fine.

Take Care

if your getting that mileage, that's great. the facts are that ethanol has far fewer BTU's than straight gasoline and typically provides 25 to 30% less mileage. Highway mileage seems to take the biggest hit.

here is a comparison of several cars with mileage posted and annual fuel costs with gasoline being about 28% more per gallon than E85.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfuel/FFV2000.shtml

We also had a local news program test the cost by traveling from here to the Ohio line back to the Illinois line and back to here. They also experienced similar results as I posted.

All I can say is, if it works for you, go for it. There is a problem brewing with ethanol though. It takes a LOT of corn to make ethanol. If alt fuel vehicles actually start taking off, your Frosted Flakes are going to cost a LOT more.

Ok, again I say internal combustion is old technology.( and I'm a Motor Head)
We've figured out how to squeeze about as much energy out of a gallon of gas than was ever thought possible.
I hate to use worn out phrases but I'll say it anyway, We've got to think out of the box and think beyond gasoline powered engines.
I like my idea about the photo electric paint and glass.
Are their any chemical engineers hear that can say wheather it is possible to develop photo electric paint and glass ?

here you go. an electric car. 130 mph. 0-60 in about 4 seconds (compare that to a Ferrari F430 0-60 in 3.9 seconds) 250 mile range and batteries are supposed to last about 100k miles.

on top of that it looks cool.

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php


Two drawbacks. Very limited production and a $92k base price.
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One other thing that NAP forgot to mention, and that was that electric car only had a 250 mile extension card.

OK, it's Mr. knows nothing about electricity, back again. If an alternator can keep a car battery charged, why couldn't a similar devise keep the car's batteries charged while it's in use? I'm not thinking about a gas fired generator. I'm thinking about an accessory to the thing something like an alternator. I don't understand why that isn't doable.

Solar paint is out. You would be infringing on the patent for an existing nanotechnology product.

Power generation and distribution are barriers to production of electric powered vehicles. How will all of this power be supplied without building nuclear power plants? Who will you displace? Where will the water supply for these power plants come from? The US power grid is already stressed, and much of it is decrepit. Where will the money to rebuild it come from?

Electric cars are toys. Put something on the table that addresses moving millions of tons of freight daily; warming a cold nation when needed; provides personal and business transportation, and reduces dependency on foreign oil.

What is nanotechnology ? and what patent is it on and why can't nanotechnology be used for other purposes ?
Just it's name suggests small in nature.
What does solar paint and nanotechnology have in common.

Imagine if you lived in the 1700's and someone described a round glass ball that had two wires sticking out of it that produced light without a flame.
Todays internal combustion engine is the wax candle of the 1700's.

Nesessity is the mother of invention.

Nanotechnology is science and technology applied at the molecular level.

"I like my idea about the photo electric paint and glass"

"Photo electric paint" "Solar paint". It already exists as a thin film process. Licensing is available. Back to the days of DC, hugh? O.K. have it your way.

AC/DC.....220 / 221, whatever it takes.

OK, it's Mr. knows nothing about electricity, back again. If an alternator can keep a car battery charged, why couldn't a similar devise keep the car's batteries charged while it's in use? I'm not thinking about a gas fired generator. I'm thinking about an accessory to the thing something like an alternator. I don't understand why that isn't doable.

btw: Today, E85 was $2.59 9/10 and the same station was $2.79 9/10 for regular gas.
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an alternator IS a gas fired generator. It just that the the generator drive also is the mechanical power force to move the car.

as I stated, there are already vehicles out there that use a generator to drive electric motors. When you speak of something such as an alternator, you have to understand how little power an alternator actually puts out. I don;t know how big the largest alt's are but the last I recall they were around 100 amp. Now since that is 100 amps at 14.5 volts, you have 1450 watts. If you look at the Tesla website, you will see that the motor they use is 285 kW. That is over 196 times the amount of power the 100 amp alternator produces.

1 hp=746 watts. if you want a 100 hp motor (obviously very low hp by todays standards) you need a generator that produces 74,600 watts. That is still over 50 times greater than the 100 amp alternator.

Now think of the engine required to power that alternator. That is why the power needs to come from sources other than an engine driving a generator. Fuel cells, batteries, etc. If you research photovoltaic cells, you will find it would take a huge surface area to provide enough electricity to run that 100 hp motor.
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from :http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/resources_faq_solar.php#generate

How much electricity does a photovoltaic (PV) system generate?

A 10% efficient PV system in most areas of the United States will generate about 180 kilowatt-hours per square meter. A PV system rated at 1 kilowatt will produce about 1800 kilowatt-hours a year. Most PV panels are warranted to last 20 years or more (perhaps as many as 30 years) and to degrade (lose efficiency) at a rate of less than 1% per year. Under these conditions, a PV system could generate close to 36,000 kilowatt-hours of electricity over 20 years and close to 54,000 kilowatt-hours over 30 years. This means that a PV system generates more than $10,000 worth of electricity over 30 years
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using those numbers, you would need over 414 square meters of PV cells to produce enough electricity to power that 100 hp motor.. Now since you are pulling a trailer 8 feet wide x 476 feet long, where are you going to park?

Now what are you going to do when it is cloudy, or at night?
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Not as simple as it sounds when you say "let's use solar energy" is it?

Sheeesh, I guess not! Now I'm gettin' a headache. I think I'll stick to floors and my little VW diesel pickup and let you guys hash this one out.

right now gas still wins...maybe nuke power will reduce our dependence on foreign oil some day?

I heard that just a 1 cubic inch piece of radioactive plutonium will power a supertanker for a month. I dont know how true that is but I guess the big concern is radioactive waist. I say dump it on the moon and we would have a second but smaller sun.

Since there are no nuclear-powered supertankers that is nothing but a guess.

As for using the moon as a nuclear waste dump...how do you plan on getting the waste (not waist) to the moon? Remember that pure radioactive material is heavier than lead.

Maybe no nuclear powered super tankers yet. So far, the biggest marine power plant is a 95,000 hp(not 9500 hp) diesel engine (with 10,000# pistons) made in Korea.

The Russians are planning on floating nuclear power plants that will desalt water also. Fusion that uses old waste materials can be a key.

Our fuel costs (gas diesel) are too low to get the U.S. manufacturers really excited in real new developments. Where fuel is expensive, there are imaginative concepts. We may "inherit" the knowledge when the U.S. manufacturers are bought out since Americans do not think enough about the car companies to get the stock prices high enough to prevent take-overs - remember Chrysler being bought by the Germans?

Maybe no nuclear powered super tankers yet.

Possible, yes! But who, in their right mind, would want a nuclear powdered tanker or cargo ship sailing into a US port?

Yahda hates Americans to the Nth degree... and then some. Yahda crews on nuclear powered ship bound for the US. He was attracted by the pay and exemplarily working conditions. Yahda breaches the reactors casing during docking. The America press is aglow with the "News". People are "shocked" about how this could happen. They find the answer archived in an Internet forum.

Fission, fusion, geothermal, blah, blah, blah. It makes no difference. The delivery system is inadequate. It is now, it has been for some time, and it will continue to be so.

Setting aside the not so insignificance problems involved in rectifying the delivery system, [Sure, just turn in your pennies! How many pennies in a mile of wire?] the nuclear generation problem still
requires vast quantities of clean water.

Don't be shy. Who will you displace? What sources of clean water will you divert? Who lives? Who dies? What is their lifestyle afterward? If you really believe that power generation and distribution have nothing to do with Social Engineering, think again.

The Nation, though the powers of immigrate and emanate domain, disband California... creating the largest nuclear power generation field in the world. The EPA is pleased to announce that El Nino has been permanently established, and the commercial fishing industry will soon harvest warm water species off the former California coast.

Money? This one is easy. Print more worthless paper. Devalue the dollar further. Hope to God that the rest of the World sees the same "Vision of Trust". Liberals say "for the children". It's for the children alright.

The US habitually exports technology only to rediscover it.

The US will never again be the stronghold of manufacturing that it once was. I challenge those still in denial of the bruising power of China and India on the world and US markets to put a real plan of action on the table. If you think special conditons.. like a level playing field are key... just keep dreaming.

If you're waiting for American manufacturers to save the day you'll be waiting a long time.

Wow....... after that last reply I feel like hanging myself. Just kidding.

http://www.radiationworks.com/nuclearships.htm

Nuclear Powered Surface Ships
United States
Russia & Former Soviet Union
Other Countries

Due to the administrators limit on editing:::

It can happen, it will happen, it is happening.
it wont cost an ocean or a state to do it.
Nuclear power can keep a plane in flight for weeks at a time. Is more economical than other systems especially for ships.

And what technologies do we export only to rediscover?

Yea, just dump the nuke waste in New Jersey, nobody will ever notice......again just kidding.

Hmm...interesting topic. I had an idea about a composite/ceramic engine that ran on water heated by a chemical reaction...but then my navy buddy told me it's already been invented and in use by the Navy. Shucks!

Some electric cars already have some generators that help keep the batteries charged. The brakes are actually generators. Hitting the brake would reverse the electric motors to become generators. The pumping of electrons by these generators creates such a resistance to motion that it slows the car down. This also gives some charge to the batteries. Not enough to replace what has been used, obviously, but it helps return some energy that would have been wasted.

And Mackey's trying to beautify New Jersey? Hehe.

Hey don't think I'm nuts but what about anit-matter technology. Is this technology light years away or can it be developed in our life time ?
Ya know what I mean stuff like "dilithium crystals and warp speed" ( no I'm not a Treky either ) but it does make you wonder.

What if _everyone_ had massive PV arrays at home to charge their vehicles? Since energy cannot be created nor destroyed, would this not have a widespread impact on our climate? (Global cooling) More need for heating during winter which would likely come from... yep, fossil fuels.

Always been curious about that.

The major problem is that the industrialised world is living beyond their means in relation to energy usage. Yes, it's true that an enormous amount of solar energy flow reaches the earth and that energy is much more than we use, but harnessing it is very difficult and would probably change the climate much to the worse. Other types of energy are available, but petroleum is the easiest to acquire. It has been down under ground for millions of years waiting for us to use it up within a few hundred years. After which we can use coal for a few more hundred years. Not quite as convenient, but energy none the less. Then we can use the soler energy which is less concentrated but still energy and usable. We can use nuclear as long as we aren't afraid of it blowing up. Wind energy is only a variation of solar. Wave energy is usable but we don't know the long term effects. Geothermal energy is usable with doubtful long term effects other than climate change.

Simply put, the rate that we use energy is too high. Electric, solar or nuclear vehicles aren't the answer. The answer is hinted at by looking at the energy efficency of the different transportation devices and power sources. So far the human body is among the most energy efficient devices we know of. That's our future in transportation! (shanks ponies)

My opinions:

There is no such thing as a Zero Emission electric car.
An accurate name would be Displaced Emissions Vehicle. There may still be emissions, but not where you are operating the vehicle, which may be of concern in an urban environment. And emission controls on a fossil fuel electric plant are often actively controlled and regulated.


Not to mention the environmental cost of the "works" of an electric car vs a fuel only car.

Right now, if the proper subsidies are in place, Hybrid is a good choice economically, and emissions wise.

NASA is trying to hang a powerized cord from a sattellite in orbit and drag it through the magnetic flux lines of the earths magnetic field and generated power like an alternator does. The problem so far is the cord breaks at about 5 miles I think...
Also,...there are cars that drive a alternator that charge the battery on a very small gas powered engine.
also, the price of corn recently shot up when Bush anounced we would use more ethenol... Massachusetts gov got upset that with all these hybrid cars, they would loose tax dollars so now they are considering removing the tax on the gas and tax you by the mile, once enough people switch to hybrids... just like when everyone went to diesel when it was cheap, then they raised the diesel prises... If an alternative is found they will find a way to tax it....

The electric car, EV, or simply electric vehicle is a battery electric vehicle (BEV) that utilizes chemical energy stored in rechargeable battery packs. Electric vehicles use electric motors and motor controllers instead of internal combustion engines (ICEs). Vehicles using both electric motors and ICEs are examples of hybrid vehicles, and are not considered pure BEVs because they operate in a charge-sustaining mode. Hybrid vehicles with batteries that can be charged externally to displace some or all of their ICE power and gasoline fuel are called plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV), and are pure BEVs during their charge-depleting mode. BEVs are usually automobiles, light trucks, neighborhood electric vehicles,

This electric car looks promising. I don't see any information on how much it costs per charge.

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.html

It looks like they are costing around 45K.

Unfortunately until they are mass-produced and in wide-spread use the price of electric and hybrid vehicles will always be much more than you could ever recoup in fuel savings costs.

right now gas still wins...maybe nuke power will reduce our dependence on foreign oil some day?

Yup gas still win.

I'd love an electric car... There is a prototype in development at the moment that is a 2 seater, 3 wheel design. You can see it here: NoAds.com

The thing is, the pure electric model is perfect for my needs. My main use for a car is shopping, going to the beach, and occasionally going to work. I work 26kms (17miles?) away from home, and the speed limit between work and home is 100kmh (62mph?).

Therefore a range of 120miles and a top speed of 100milesperhour is more than enough for me! The thing that annoys me is.... it's also more than enough for 95% of the people that drive to work every day in my city. They're all driving alone to and from the city every day. Such a waste.

Oh, and I'm DYING to get rid of the complicated system that is the internal combustion engine. Electric is much simpler. No more oil changes :)


The only reason this car would fail for me is when it came to vacations. For that reason I would consider the plugin Hybrid, but I would also consider having an old model oil powered sedan that I drove once every year or two that I took vacations on.

And the thing about "battery charging is fossil fuel based". I've opted for "Natural Power" with my electricity company which states that for every unit of power I buy, they will match that with solar/wind/hydro power. Even if this were not the case, I would install PV panels on my house to charge the car. But since my mains power is green anyway (at a cost of course), I'd just plug it in and be oil free.

Imagine charging your car while you sleep for free... never having to stop at a petrol bowser ever again. :thinker:

Hydrogen car anyone??

Only emission is H2O


fred
(but I do like the Tesla!!)

but the drawback is after 50,000 miles :wall:

electric car needs new batteries ie $25,000

hydrogen car needs new feul cell $25,000


hmmmmmmm ;)