Lighting, Light Fixtures, Ceiling and Exhaust Fans - Switch wiring for new ceiling fixture

I am installing a new overhead light in my dining room and wanted to make sure that I am wiring up the switch correctly. There are currently two switches in the room that control one wall outlet. I want to disconnect one of them from controlling the wall outlet and use it to control the new overhead light. The two switches were wired oddly to begin with. One of the switches acts like a master switch, if it is in the off position, the other switch and the controlled outlet doesn't work. This "master" switch is the one that I want to use to control the ceiling light fixture. As a side note, there are about 5 outlets on this circuit, but only one of the outlets is controlled by the switches.

I am on a 20 amp circuit, so I installed a new run of 12x3 wire from my new box in the ceiling to the switch box. Also coming into the switch box is the old 12x3 wire (1 black, 1 red, 1 white, and 1 bare). The switch is currently wired up as follows: the red and black wires are connected to the two screws on one side of the switch and white wire is connected to the only screw on the other side of the switch. The ground is connected to the ground screw. One big question that I have is that the existing wire (that is currently connected to the switch) isn't copper colored, it is a lighter colored gray...I'm not sure if this is a problem? There is a black tar-like substance that is coating the connection between the wire and the screws on the switches.

I don't need the third (red) wire for my light fixture, but thought that I might want a ceiling fan later on and decided to just run the 3-wire and cap the red at the other end.

My plan for connecting up the switch was to disconnect the existing white wire from the switch and then connect the two whites together with a screw-cap. I will leave the black from the old wire connected to the switch and connect the black from my new wire (running to the new light) on the switch screw where the red is currently connected to. I was planning on connecting the red from the old wire with the red from the new wire with a screw-cap and then capping it off in the new fixture as well. I'm not sure what the red wire is currently feeding, but whatever it is, I don't need it to be controlled by the switch unless I later put in a ceiling fan.

Any comments on this plan...am I on the right track? Probably rightly so, I get a little paranoid about electrical wiring and want to make sure that I'm doing this right.

You are way off base and your plan won;t work.

First, and most important. There are two switches in the room for a reason. I suspect that there are two entrances from the room, and the original intent was to have the light controlled from two places. Somewhere along the line someone incorrectly replaced at least on of the switches and messed up the operation.

Before you attempt to add something new, you need to get the switches working properly. Then you can consider rewiring the switches to control the new light you are adding.

At this point you do not have a neutral wire in the switch box you are looking at. It is wired as a portion of a switch loop and has no neutral. You can do nothing that will work at this switch only. You must involve the other switch and perhaps the switched receptacle to make this work.

Tell us all the wiring at the other switch, at this switch, and at at least the one receptacle that is switched. We can sort out from that.

When you are all done, you will two three way switches working properly to control your light.

By all the wiring I mean just that, all the wiring. Tell us about all the wires. Tell us what cables they come from and what they are connected to. other wires, the switch, the receptacle, etc. By the way, telling us one side of the switch or the other means nothing. Not all switches are the same. On the three way switches there will be one common terminal and two travelers. The travelers are the same color, and the common is a different color.

Telling two wires are on one side and one on the other side is useless info. You must identify the common screw. It will be the black one or marked 'common' on the switch body.

It should be possible to make the two switches operate this light if you tell us all the wire connections in the two switches and the switched receptacle. If this room has two doors you are required by code to have a switch at each door that will turn on a light.

Okay...I'm glad I asked before trying anything.

As for the information...here goes. As you surmised, the room has more than one entrance. It is a combo dining/sitting room. There is one switch in the middle of the room (at the transitiong between the dining and sitting room), which is also next to the door into the kitchen. The other switch is at end of the room on the opposite wall next to a hallway. The circuit contains all the receptacles in both the dining and sitting room. There are 7 receptacles in the circuit, however there is only 1 receptacle that is controlled by the switches.

As I mentioned before, the switch that I wanted to use for my new ceiling light has only one set of wires (red, white, black, and bare) coming into the junction box. The black wire connected to the common screw and the red and white wires connected to the two remaining screws.

At the switched receptacle, there is one set of wires that comes into the junction box (black, white, and bare).

At the second switch, there are three sets of wires that come into the j-box. Wire #1 -has three wires (red, black, white, and bare). Wire #2 and Wire #3 have two wires each (black, white, and bare). The red and white from Wire #1 are connected to the traveler screws on the switch. The black from Wire #2 is connected to the common screw. The blacks from wires #1 and #3 are wire nutted together at the back of the box. The whites from wires #2 and #3 are wire-nutted together at the back of the box. The bare wires are all connected together an attached to the ground screw on the switch.

I can't tell exactly where each wire is coming/going. I'm pretty sure the wire with three strands (black, white, and red) is going from switch #1 to switch #2. I only found a black and white wire in each of the other receptacles.

If this gets too complicated, I may need to just get an electrician come in. Let me know if you need any more info. Thanks for your help.

This will make the receptacle always hot and the two switches will control your new fixture.

Leave the receptacle as is.
At the second switch.

Leave all the grounds together
Connect all white together.
Connect #2 & #3 black together with a pigtail. Connect the pigtail to the common screw.
Connect #3 black and red to the traveler screws.

At first switch.
Connect black and red to traveler screws.
Connect the old white to the new white.
Connect the black from your new cable to the common screw.

Your switched receptacle should work properly with the existing switches. In other words, you should be able to turn the receptacle on and off from either switch.

I am concerned about the existing wiring. If your wiring is copper then all is fine. However, if your wire is aluminum then all bets are off. Aluminum wiring, in my opinion, requires an electrician to deal with.

The age of your house and/or the age of an renovations would indicate if you have aluminum wiring.

With copper wiring, the following connections will provide you switched power at the second receptacle.

Use 12-2 wire with ground to go from the switch to the ceiling. Using 12-3 would give you an extra wire, but that won't gain you anything, as the second switch will only have switched power.

At the second switch make the following connections:
Connect the black and red wires from the three conductor cable to the traveler terminals of the 3 way switch. Connect the black wire from the ceiling to the common terminal of the three way switch. Connect the white wires together with a wire nut. Connect all ground wires together, to the switch and to the metal box.

As the first switch make the following connections:
Connect all white wires together. Connect the black and red wires from the three conductor cable to the traveler terminals of the switch. Connect the other black wires together and pigtail to the common terminal of the switch. Connect all ground wires together, to the switch and to the metal box.

This will give you the light switched by either switch, and the receptacle always hot.

Nothing is too complicated for somebody who knows how to use the word "surmised".

Your wiring is quite clear. Power comes into the second switch on one of the black/white cables. Then the black/red/white cable is a switch loop to the first switch. The other black/white cable takes the switched power to the receptacle. Pretty standard stuff.

As Bob says, somebody replaced a switch at some point in the past, and mistakenly created that master/slave arrangement you have now. If you want, we can easily tell you how to put this back the way it should be. That's pretty easy. Then you can just add a cable from the ceiling to the receptacle, and your switches will control both the receptacle and the ceiling light. That's not exactly what you asked for, but it's what I think you should have asked for.

Thanks guys. The wiring connection themselves seem straight forward enough. However, as racraft eluded to...I'm still a little concerned with the aluminum wiring connections. Is it okay to connect copper (for the new wire to the ceiling) to the existing aluminum and are the gauges of wire compatible (i.e. do you still connect a #12 aluminum to a #12 copper)?

The existing switch has a black compound on the connections to prevent corrosion and I'm told that there are screw-caps that are specially made for aluminum to copper connections that contain the same anti-corrosion compound in the cap. So I assume that having both aluminum and copper within the same circuit is allowed (although I'm sure it's not preferred).

Due to the potential fire hazard of the connections with aluminum, is this a job that you guys would advise me to bring in an electrian for? I feel comfortable enough making the connections with copper, but I'm a little concerned about the aluminum.

Thanks for the help.

Aluminum wiring, in my opinion, requires an electrician to deal with.

If the existing wiring is aluminum, then bring in an electrician. When you make the call to find an electrician, make sure that he or she has dealt with aluminum branch circuit wiring before (ASK!).

However, what you think is aluminum may really be tinned copper. Try to identify it first. If you can find the cable in an attic or crawl space, read the jacket, or try to scrape the surface of the wire to see if the silver surface scrapes off.

If only one section of the cable is aluminum (usually NOT the case) then it would be prudent to simply replace the aluminum piece of cable.

The issues with aluminum wiring are in the connections to copper, either copper wire or copper devices. Special connectors are used or special "grease" is used. I would not tackle these myself, but leave them to someone familiar with aluminum wiring.

There are a mountain of papers on the web about aluminum wiring. Read as many of them as you can. Then you'll almost be an expert. Bottom line is that nothing "ordinary" can be used with aluminum wiring. You always need something "special".

#12 aluminum has an ampacity (current carrying ability) about the same as #14 copper.

If #12 aluminum carries about the same as #14 copper, would it be better to use #14 copper for any new connections to the circuit? Or is it better to stick with all #12 wiring?

If the breaker is a 15-amp breaker, then either is fine.

Yes...but as I stated in the first post, the breaker is 20 amps. Is either still fine?...Or is the #12 aluminum on a 20 amp breaker a concern?

For the record, I'm definitely going to bring in an electrician. I'm just trying to get as much info as I can so that I can point out things that need to be checked out while he is at the house.

The #12 aluminum should not be on a 20-amp breaker. After you verify that the wiring really is aluminum (see Bob's post), then replace the breaker with a 15-amp breaker. Try to do that without killing yourself. Opening up the panel is no job for a novice.

I finally took care of my electrical issue after about 3 months (the wife was beginning to get angry with having the dining room circuit shut off), so I thought I would give a quick update and ask a follow-up question.

I had an electrician come out yesterday and check out my problem and make the connections for wiring up the new fixture that all of you had been so kind to advise me on a long while back. I watched him as he was working and he hooked up the wiring exactly as you had instructed me to. We now have working switches and light, so I'm happy with the end result.

However, I'm having a bit of buyers remorse and feel like the electrician way over-charged me for the amount of work he did. Basically, I had already run the new wire for my new overhead fixture. All he had to do was install a new junction box in the attic that would support a chandelier, then use the wire that I had already fished into place to make the connections to the switch. In total it took him about 1.5 hours - he touched two switches, one receptacle, installed the new j-box, and mounted the light. Total cost - $440. They charged $70 for the service call just to show up and give me an estimate (when I booked them to come out I thought that this cost was credited as part of the work, but apparently not). He charged $150 for installing the heavy duty J-box (which took about 5 minutes) and then $200 for making the connections and hanging the fixture. Do these charges seem reasonable? If it wasn't so hard for me to get off work I would have told him to take a hike and I would have installed the j-box myself and got someone else in.

Okay...I feel better now that I've got that off my chest. My question is that I asked him about the #12 aluminum being on a 20amp breaker and he told me that he wouldn't recommend changing it to a 15 amp breaker. He said that #12 wiring is made for 20 amps and that since my dining room is right next to the kitchen, there was a chance for heavy appliances to be used in there and so I should leave it at 20 amps rather than replacing it with a 15 amp breaker. I'm planning on getting another guy to come in down the road to do a couple of other small projects and was wondering if I should insist on getting the breaker switched out. We don't typically use any of the receptacles, so the only device being used on the circuit would be the new overhead lighting. Is changing out the breaker something that I should be addressing urgently or is it just undesirable?

For aluminum branch circuit wiring, 20 amp circuits require 10 gage wire and 15 amp circuits require 12 gage wire. Yes, you should change that breaker to 15 amps if there is 12 gage aluminum wiring involved.