Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - justalurker magnetizer to soften water

Justalurker or anyone else,

I've read most of what you have to say about salt water softener and you really seem to know your stuff. I had a plumber come out for an estimate and he recommended getting a magnetizer instead. It's a lot cheaper than getting the salt water softener installed....so I am a little skeptical now.

Do you know anything about magnetizers used to resolve hard water issue? Are they any good or just a gimic? Can you please enlighten me?

Thanks

I vote: gimmick

but just in case you do believe and purchase one, visit this site as they have magnetizers for just about every pipe you can think of.

http://www.xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Best thing to do is to get another plumber ;)

Better yet, find a water treatment professional :)

To "soften" water is to remove calcium (among other things like iron) from the water and that is commonly done by one of two methods.

One method is ion exchange as done by a water softener. A water softener exchanges either sodium ions (if using NaCl) or potassium ions (if using KCl) for calcium (and other) ions in the hard water. That's it, no ifs, no ands, no buts, and no sales double talk. Simple chemistry and physics. Softening water is not black magic. It is physics and chemistry with a side of mechanics. No matter how hard sales people try (and want) to they can not violate the laws of physics or change the nature of chemical actions and reactions.

The other is by a filter, but no simple filter will remove calcium. You would need a reverse osmosis unit large enough to service your entire house. You would not want to pay for that big an RO nor pay for the service and routine maintainence it would require and RO water would be very agressive in your plumbing.

NO magnet(ic) gizmo or electronic gizmo will soften water but people waste their money on them EVERYDAY.

Check out this URL for one story http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm and there are many more on the net if you Google.

Pick the right softener (not a box store brand) and get a competent install and you should go 15-20 years.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing is that water treatment begins with a complete water test so you know what needs to be treated or filtered out to get the quality water you want. Are you on a well or a water system? Do that and post the results so we might help.

BTW, they aren't "salt water softeners" they ARE "ion exchange water softeners". Salt is NOT added to make soft water. A common mistake and one that leads many down the wrong path.

I find it truly amazing that in this day and age crap like this is still being marketed, and worse yet, eaten up by the general public. Magnets won't soften water any more than an astrologist can soften water. A magnet IS good if you own a scrap metal yard and want to move large quantities of metal. Or to hold your kids pictures to the fridge. Get a real water softener, that is an ion-exchange variety. Now, on the other hand if your water has an abundance of iron filings in it, you certainly can go the route of magnetic water gizmo-da-doohicky thinga majig. This just might work. But then again...


WOw


p.s. no offense intended, to anyone. it's all in fun, just like the "magnetic water softener???"

It's just weird because the plumber wants to charge 2600 to install a water softener, but he rather install this magnetizer for 175 bucks. Wouldn't he want to make more money?

I will test my water and post the results. Thanks for all your responses.

This is only speculation but I'd think your plumber could sell and install 10-15 of those rip-offs in a day @ $1750-$2625 times 5 days a week = $13125

He's only be able to do two softener installs a day and would actually have to work.

No mystery to me what he'd choose and why.

Like I said before "best thing to do is to get another plumber... better yet, find a water treatment professional".

If you want to research magic softeners further just google it... you'll get millions of hits and the song will remain the same.

For your further consideration... water softener 101

First, get a complete water test from an independent lab. This is a MUST DO because without it everything is a guess. A quickie water test from Sears or a water softener company won't be complete. They only test for the "profitable" stuff.

Second, hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan and at least a couple independent pros. DON'T TELL THEM YOU HAD YOUR WATER TESTED.

Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated.

Ask lots of questions. Warranty, parts & labor, how long? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

After they've gone use your water test to compare with their's. Are all your treatment needs being addressed?

Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid.

Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.

If you're a DIYer then you have other options ... here's a great place to start
http://ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=179

You have to "cut & paste" as HTML is turned off on this forums.

I would like to comment on this thread. Reference was made to a product on our site xxxxxxxxxcom named Magnetizer. I do not plan to get into a tit for tat discussion, but it is clear that the skeptics position is based on the claim that magnets soften hard water. Magnets do not reduce water hardness, they control it in away that gives the effect of softer water. It is effective in reducing scale buildup in pipes which improves energy efficiency and reduce cost. In addition to being expensive, salt water softeners result in negative impact on our environment. I asked Doug Greene from Magnetizer Industrial Technologies, Inc. how he would respond to the arguments in the thread and this was his response:

"The essence of the skeptic's argument is based on a fundamental misinterpretation of how magnetic water conditioning actually works - I would agree that ion exchange reduces hardness from a chemical standpoint and magnetic water treatment does not remove hardness, however, we would never claim to reduce actual hardness, only the impact of the hardness minerals which is why magnetic water "acts" like soft water since the negative effects of the minerals are controlled. There is plenty of credible 3rd party substantiation of magnetic treatment - I have attached several for you. The fact remains, salt softening brine discharge has been banned in many areas due to the negative environmental impact and more and more plumbers are offering magnetic treatment systems as an environmentally sensitive alternative. The problem with the arguments n the thread you sent me is that they assume (incorrectly) that magnetic water treatment claims to reduce hardness - it does not. They need to do their homework."

If any wants the articles Doug sent me just ask. I think in the interest of this one planet that we all share we should consider earth friendly solutions such as the Magnetizer Hard Water "Conditioner" not "Softener".

There are a lot of Ifs Ands or Buts here and all comes out true But. Like has been said here.
The water here is very hard so a lot of the homes put in 3 pipe set up. Soft hot and cold. Then a hard cold water. like the Doc. say you dont need all the salts in you. So to cook make drinks coffee, scotch and water . You use the cold hard water for them.

Now on the magnetizers Does it make the water soft. I dont know. What I do know. Some how it makes the lime and calcium like come out of the water. So in your ice cubes like after you get done with the drink or the ice melts . You will see very small white flakes. Or like one said . The minerals change to a soft powdery consistency and settle at the bottom of a glass . I have seen like after a shower in a dark tub and the water drops dries. There will be like a white spot of dust. That you can just blow or wipe away
Here is two www to go read . I would think if we take some of the stuff out of the water . Dont that make it softer????????? ;)


http://www.partshvac.com/humidifier/Filterhumidifiers.htm

http://www.wholly-water.com/MagTestimonials.htm

Ed,

"Now on the magnetizers Does it make the water soft. I dont know".

If you'd like to know here's a little light reading for you...

http://www.wqa.org/pdf/GovRelations/WQAMagneticsTaskForceReport.pdf

"The minerals change to a soft powdery consistency and settle at the bottom of a glass". If the minerals are IN the bottom of the glas then they are IN the water and the water is not soft and you are not getting the benefits of soft water.

"I would think if we take some of the stuff out of the water . Dont that make it softer?????????"

If you take calcium and/or iron and/or magnesium out of the water then it IS soft. If those elements and compounds are still in the water then it is not soft. "Soft water" is defined multitudes of times in many places.

The bottom line is that whatever the water user is willing to accept as far as the level of quality of their water is their right (within legally mandated sanitary conditions). The water user has the right to spend their (hard)earned money on whatever devices they choose to install to run their water through.

I guess it just boils down (pun intended) to who you'd rather trust and spend your money with...

Abraham Lincoln or P.T. Barnum ;)

I can only make statements on my own experience concerning magnets. I have treated water in many houses where we found huge magnets on the pipes. The damgage found to water heaters, washers, dishwashes, ice-makers, shower heads, sink faucets, and iron build-up in pipes regardless of copper, or galvanized was clearly evident.

The number of owners that thought these magnets would not only prevent these problems but would actually 'correct' them, is nearly universal. I have met only one owner who had magnets that actually liked them and when I went to his house and inspected his plumbing and pointed out short-comings, I went away having him understand what was really happening. Seven months later he called me back. He no longer has them attached.

Until now the only people I know that support magnet use are those dealing in them. I may be wrong and I am not opposed to further research, study and experiementation, but, for me, the jury has been out for a long time.

Even if the claims were completely true, the damage from hardness minerals can go on unabated in many aspects of water-related appliances, tools, and equipment. I don't think any car wash, laundromat would employ magnets to solve their water problems.

As for damaging the environment with sodium (not salt /NaCl/), a high effiecient softener puts so little into the environment, that there has been little effect in a negative way. The WQA has done numerous and extensive research here. On the other hand, there are still in use many highly INefficient softeners that can cause problems due to excessive salt use and improper regeneration process.

Andy Christensen, CWS

I thank Microwaterman for correcting the terminology error in that the industry claims do mention water conditioning, not water softening.

Right now because of the controversy and conflicting reports this industry is being sold on a "belief based" system.
My personal feelings are that when testimonials are the main thrust of promotion, the opinions expressed have no scientific scrutiny and therefore little merit.

I would encourage anyone thinking about this type of device to do their research carefully.
I spend a great deal of time researching varying topics and can say that the number one search technique anyone should use is to carefully scrutinize the source.
I have found that almost all of the positive reports come from the industry and are based mainly on testimonials which have no weight IMO.

In fairness to the industry I have found a positive report from what appears to be a university that reported an improvement in water quality. Their findings show that when used on a constantly recirculating system there were some positive results.

http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sas/water/magnets/

I would encourage people to do as much reading on this as possible and make up their own minds.

In the spirit of DIY here are some plans to make your own magnetic treatment device:

http://www.matchrockets.com/water/magwatertreat.html

I tried to look for information on magnetizers, but I couldn't find much on this topic.

So, I decided on getting a water softener fleck 5600se and bought the watts premier reverse osmosis system. I wanted to get the zero waste system but instead purchased the wp4-v. I really like it....and am thinking about getting one for my bathroom, too. costco has it for 160 vs. the 290 pricetag if you purchase this from watts. It also comes with a designer faucet.

Thanks you for all your responses. I appreciate it.

leslykay,

That softener, correctly sized and setup along with that RO should prove to be good choices.

Keep us informed how it goes.