Entertainment Center: TVs, Stereos, VCRs and DVDs - Power Conditioners..A bet

As a former manager of a stereo store (back in the 1980's) I am very aware of what a great line of products Monster Cable makes....Great for the merchant! What is the consensus of opinion on the Power Conditioners that the salespeople at Best Buy & C. City push when they sell HiDef TV's? (an example is the "Monster Cable Power Center" which sells for $499.99 at CCity)
I'd be willing to bet that no mere mortal would ever be able to see the difference if you were to set up 2 systems. (exact same components but one has a power condioner & one doesn't) and I do mean SEE the difference....(not using test equipment like an oscilliscope)
Any takers?<G>

Don;t know if you would see a diff but I suspect it would add longevity to the TV.

If it is a true power conditioner, it would remove the highs and supplement the lows to provide an even voltage. Electronics don't like the highs and lows in life.

Sorry Nap but I've heard that argument too. No OEM backs that argument up. If any "tweak" out there really feels that he must waste.....err SPEND his money on electronic gadgets, I happen to sell a patented, secret device that harnesses the power of the universe to give you the best possible picture on your HiDef set! (it also has an attachment to core apples!)

Power conditioners are a scare tactic ( at least for the US). Your money would be better spent purchasing the extended warranty.

If you are not having problems now, then save your money. Hi defs will come down in price - like all electronics. The cost of repair will then get close to the cost of replacement.

No manufacturer would stay in business if it's device needed a power conditioner.

I didn't say it needed a power conditioner, I said it would benefit from it and additioanlly you guys seemed to blow off the probable surge protection included with a power conditioner. This is always a recommended item.


Devil5052: No OEM backs that argument up.

What do you mean no OEM backs that argument up? Explain.

Electronics prefer smooth power. That is why there are devices such as isolation transformers, isolated grounds, and dedicated neutral used in electrical power systems. There have been a myriad of problems that power conditioning remedies.

Due to the size of the conductors within electronics, a small voltage variation can make a big difference in temperture produced in those conductors. Electronics really do not like heat. That is why computers are forced air cooled, water cooled, or even refrigerated. Ever notice install instructions always tell you to not block the cooling vents?

There are enough engineers out there that support my position that I feel very comfortable with it. Companies spend a LOT of money installing power conditioning. The accountants usually do not blindly accept stories of need.

Tribe fan: I don;t know where you live but California has been experiencing intentional brownouts for years. If there ever was a need, there it is. If you have ever seen a recording of the voltage fluctuations in most any neighborhood, you would understand this a bit more.

As far as needing additional products; have you noticed most electronincs manufacturers suggest a surge supressor? That could be incorporated within the appliance but it would cost more so they tell you to buy it so they can keep the price of their product down.

A power conditioner is not a bad idea if you live in a region known to have erratic electical supply. Here in FL, for example, the frequent thunderstorms make a quality surge suppressor the absolute minimum. I find the use of a decent UPS unit to be pretty effective for nearly all situations. Some of my friends who live in more remote areas have found that they needed the actual conditioner.

For 90% of all installations, though, a power conditioner is a nice upgrade, but not necessary.

If, however, you are a hard-core audiofile or have a very sharp eye for video artifacts, the conditioner is not a bad thing because it removes line noise trash from the audio and display.

i'm not an audiophile or videophile by any stretch but i do think i have a decent system and i've spent and i like my audio for movies to engage me along with the video being as clear as i can get on my plasma.

i live in a condo and for whatever reason, the electricity gets occasional spikes (minor). i used to have everything hooked up to one of the lower end monster power adapters (hts 800) - i never really thought anything about it but you could hear like a static hum sometimes during quiet parts of a movie and there were popping sounds too. the picture would pixelate too when i would watch tv - not anything serious but annoying enough.

while i was at a home theater store, i saw the panamax line conditioners. after doing a little research and shopping along with getting the salesman to tell me that i could return it if i didn't see a noticeable difference - i picked up the 5500ex. at close to a grand, its probably a little overkill but i figured it wouldn't hurt. after connecting everything, i turned everything on, put a movie in the dvd player and cranked up the sound. - the first thing i noticed was just complete silence..... right before the thx scale comes in - ended up going through the whole movie trying to listen for any static or popping or distortion. - nothing..... i then checked my cable box and went through all the hi def channels. i like to use the discovery hd channel as my visual control when i compare picture quality as that channel is ridiculous... i'll tell you what - the picture was better after adding this and it totally cleaned up any audio problems i was having previously. it IS just cleaner power and i noticed improvement immediately after incorporating it. i'm sure not everyone will see the same results i did as my power lines were already part of the problem - but it was definitely worth the money to me. i'd be pissed if my tv, receiver or speakers got damaged as a result of me not getting a better conditioner.

Yup, your situation is definitely a prime candidate for line conditioning. I think a lot of multi-residence dwellings have issues in their electrical systems.

I'm in a much better situation. I'm on an established section of the power grid without any significant new construction nearby, and I have the tools and knowhow to check my electricity. This area is so stable that in a decade, including several hurricane/tropical storm passes, we've only had less than a dozen power failures.

While power conditioning has its place, moreso in some markets (even in the U.S.), I think the OP was addressing the issue of the "Monster" brand in particular. If there were a way to make special gold plated button covers for the buttons on a remote control, they'd find a way to make them and market the fact that the improvement would somehow increase the speed with which you could channel surf! The science just isn't there to justify some of the materials used in these products, much less the accompanying prices.

I've been in stores that have miswired their demo units by reversing the wires on one or the other of their front/side speakers, causing an immediately identifiable lack of "middle" in the audio (I had them switch to some mono programming so they could understand what I meant). In one such store, these were the same guys that were trying to tell me the wire length to the two speakers needed to be the same to avoid "phase errors". Try 180 degrees, boys. Geez, you should hear what these types say about Monster products.

The margins must be incredible.

To those of you who say that AC power conditioning is doing good things for some kind of ongoing problems wiht your video quality, etc. -- sorry to hear that -- your power is either of 3rd world quality, or your equipment has some pretty sorry power supply design.

To those of you who say that AC power conditioning is doing good things for some kind of ongoing problems wiht your video quality, etc. -- sorry to hear that -- your power is either of 3rd world quality, or your equipment has some pretty sorry power supply design.
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I hate to admit and realize the fact that there are areas within our country that do have nearly 3rd world country power supply systems, at least at times.

Our power grid within our country is woefully inadequate and deteriorating at a rate much greater than is being repaired or, shall I even say it, upgraded.

Remember the multi state blackout a couple years ago? If proper systems were in place, that would have been limited to a much smaller area if all the eqipment invilved worked as designed and only the fact an operator took action, and from my understanding against protocall and direction, opened the gear he controlled, prevented the blackout from reaching to the Illinois border, and possibly much further.

Those problems merely show the need for power conditioning on any sensitive electronic equipment. During that time there were sags and surges that affected consumers that were never subjected to the blackout area.

I dont hesitate to say I believe we will see a time that a power conditioner at each home would be a good investment. The cost of some of the televisions available today ( $2k to $3k is very common and I have seen units into the 10's of thousands of dollars), it would only be prudent to do whatever is possible to protect your investment and do anything available to extend the life of the unit as much as possible.

btw, I am not a salesman for any electronics systems. I am an electrician and see a lot of things in my work. As a matter of fact, just this past week, I worked at a business that was saved several thousand dollars by utilizing power conditioning equipment. The neutral from the POCO became disconnected due to water freezing in the splice at the transformer and lost connection. Many items in the building that were on a multiwire branch circuit were exposed to voltages up to 240 volts that were supposed to be 120 volts circuits. Several things got fried but their computer systems were saved due to the power conditioning equipment in place. It smoked that equipment but saved the computers.

What you're describing are catastrophic failures of the mains of one sort or another. Of note: even some of those conditions are supposed to be handled properly by anything bearing a CE mark -- Europe is a bit pickier than we are about these things, and have more power problems than we do! The test equipment used generates a few pretty ugly conditions.

I agreed that power conditioning has its place.

A persistent (and survivable) problem with video or audio due to "line noise"... that's another story, and I think that's what was being reported in the earlier post.

[QUOTE=ecandersonii;1111518

A persistent (and survivable) problem with video or audio due to "line noise"... that's another story, and I think that's what was being reported in the earlier post.[/QUOTE]

One thing that no electrical appliance I know of comes eqipped with is a power conditioner/UPS that will correct a low voltage problem. That requires a battery or cap bank to provide power when line voltage drops. Just havent seen anything like this included, yet.

Low voltage is a very big problem with electronics. Why is it so hard to get folks to understand that electronics dont like the highs and lows and the only way to correct that is with a conditioner/UPS system. The electrical supply in this country, as good as it is, is subjected to a great deal of variance in any given day. With a large expenditure, it is simply prudent to protect that investment. As far as quality of audio or visual dispays; Im old enough that all I really wory about is being able to hear and see the stuff but there are those that want, and are willing to pay, for the best they can get. A conditioner may very well give them some benefit. I still have trouble taking the vacuum tube v. transistor argument with sound systems seriously but I do not blow off those that may be able to discern a difference, I just cant hear a difference.

Again, should NOT be a problem, at least not in "recent" history.

Most of the gear we buy here in the U.S. is also marketed in Europe. For some years now, in order to be sold in the EU countries, and a device must pass a battery of tests in order to be given the CE mark that is required to do so. Those tests include over- and *under*-voltage conditions. If you find the CE on the rating plate, it's expected to handle these problems, and parts of Europe, even the old EU countries, are rife with them -- hence the standard. Rather than cleaning up their power grid and local distribution, they put the problem off on the manufacturers of electronic equipment to solve the problem for them.

Take a look at what the EN61000-4-x series of tests requires. It can be pretty brutal, especially the "fast transients" portion where they pump some nasty spikes up your mains input! That previous post sounded like he had RF coupling into his equipment. EN61000 addresses that as well.

While not trivial, decent power supply design isn't rocket science anymore, either. They're even having to avoid the feeding of harmonics back into the line so as not to contribute to the problem. Power Factor Correction has become the norm (even for very low power wall warts, if you're in California!)

We're not in a day where voltage surges on the line should be taking the filaments out of a series wired 5 tube radio. The technology has progressed quite a bit since then, and with the exception of the kinds of catastrophic events you raised in your prior post, equipment today should be handling this.

I didnt say it couldnt handle the problems, just that the problems, which are not totally removed, can cause a decrease in lifespan. Meeting the susceptability standard you quoted also does not mean that the device is not ultimately damaged, just that is can withstand those requirements at the moment. As conductors degrade due to higher than desired currents, it will eventually fail to pass those standards.

and to the dual applications for EU and USA. Obviously due to the different power available in each of those areas, the power supply would be totally different and it would make no business sense to assure that a power supply for US use that is not usable in EU would even spend the time or money to qualify it as such.

The bottom line in my mind. Power conditioners do provide a benefit. As I posted earlier, there are too many engineers that had/have to justify them to the bean counters where they are used.

Throwing some standards that are not typically employed in general consumer level devices won;t change that either.

Sure would like to see some of them special Californian wall warts though.

Since this is a DYI site and this has headed well beyond the typical consumer/DIYer, Im going quit continuing the headbutting and leave it for those that read it to decide.

Devil5052: No OEM backs that argument up.

What do you mean no OEM backs that argument up? Explain.

What I mean Nap is this.....Please point out any manufacturer who extends their warranty (in writing) if you can show that you have a line conditioner connected.

why would a manufactuer incrrease their warranty for an individual installing a conditioner.

First, they will want to claim there is no benefit because there equipment is so good it doesn't need it

Next, they want you to buy new equipment when yours wears out.

If they don't make any money on the deal, they surely aren't going to extend a warranty that costs them money. We're beyond the value of conditioners and into business decisions and how to make money.

why would a manufactuer incrrease their warranty for an individual installing a conditioner.

First, they will want to claim there is no benefit because there equipment is so good it doesn't need it

Next, they want you to buy new equipment when yours wears out.

If they don't make any money on the deal, they surely aren't going to extend a warranty that costs them money. We're beyond the value of conditioners and into business decisions and how to make money.


My point exactly Nap......If power conditioners really added to equipment longevity (as some argue) then maufacturers would acknolwedge this by offering warranty extensions for their equipment "protected" by such conditioners.
None do, because, other than performing quite admirably as expensive paper-weights....they serve no useful purpose whatsoever.

You apparently totally misunderstood my my statement.

The sellers of conditioners aren't getting any money from extending some other manufacturers warranty so they aren't going to do it.
The manufacturers of the eqipment being protected lose money by extending their warranty. Not a good business decision.

You can claim what you want, it makes no diff to me.