Doors and Windows - Hanging Doors, not sure if opening is level enough

I am building a small set of french doors. I plan on making them square - obvioulsy. But the opening where I will hang them is just a bit out of square.

At the top , the opening is 32 3/8. As I go down it stays square past the halfway point. But about 2/3 the way down it measures 32 1/4 across.

Its only 1/8 inch but how should this be handled.

By the way, I cant fix the part that causes that extra 1/8 unless I belt sanded it. But that seems like a lot of work - and dust - for 1/8 inch.

Are your measurements of the rough opening between the framing, or are you measuring an opening which has the jambs installed?

this is with the jambs installed.

pull the jambs , shim them to square

Remove the facings. Add and remove shims as necessary to make jambs straight and plumb, nailing through jamb and shim. Re-install the facings.

In the original post, I mentioned i cant fix the part that sticks out to give me the extra 1/8 but I wasnt specific enough.

This is a balcony that overlooks a family room - that is where these doors are going.

When I framed this a while back i created the opening, put in the jambs (not realizing I wasnt perfectly square) then put moldingings on the outside (this is 8 feet above the ground in the family room) and then added a railing in front of the molding.

I did shim it, but the shims are screwed to my jack studs. The jambs screwed to the shims - and the molding nailed, from the front, into the jambs.

So, removing the shims at this point isnt really an option. I guess if it is the only way, I can manage to do something but Id hate to make more mess of this, and add more work than I have to.

Can this be handled without re-shimming? Its only 1/8 inch , at the bottom third of one side that is out of square.

If you can't (or won't) fix it by removing the casing and taking the shim out that is causing the problem, then I wouldn't worry about it because it's only 1/8" and that suggestion is the only solution to the problem.

Like we talked about in your original post on building doors, you're going to have about a 1/8" gap on the left hinge side of the doors, 1/8" between the doors, and 1/8" on the right hinge side of the doors. If, after hanging the doors, the "bump" causes a problem, you can always belt sand that side of the door down to adjust it a little bit so as to conform to the shape of the jamb on that side. Door stop will hide the edges of the doors on the closing side.

Also, the term "square" usually refers to the entire opening... so I'd be curious to know if the diagonal measurements of the opening are the same (regardless of your "bump"). Measure from bottom left - top right, then compare that measurement to bottom right - top left. If the opening is "square", those diagonal measurements will be exactly the same, and you shouldn't have any trouble hanging the doors if they themselves are also perfectly square.

But if I know my bottom left bulges out, then my diagonals wont be the same - right?

When I said square, what I really meant was that the top piece is level, and the two sides are plumb... until I get about 1/3 the way down on the left. Thats when it starts to bulge in.

A 1/8 gap is the right size? I look at all of my interior doors and the gap between the door and the jambs is almost a perfect fit. Tighter than 1/8.

I guess if I needed to belt sand to fit, it would never be noticed. Like you said from the outside , door stops will hide it bt even from the inside, I cant image 1/8 taper on one end would be noticeable. Am I right?

Theoretically, the diagonal with the bulge (bottom left to top right) would be roughly 1/8" shorter than the opposite diagonal that does not have the bulge. (That is, if the head is perfectly level, the non-bulging side is plumb and the floor is perfectly level, because those things also affect whether or not the opening is square.)

If you had Geometry, you might remember that an isosceles trapezoid is "square" (meaning its diagonals are equal) even though the top of the trapezoid is larger than the bottom of the trapezoid (provided the sides are of equal length). So a door opening that is like that could be "square" but that coul dbe misleading- if it's 1/4" smaller on the bottom than on the top, it would mean the opening is 1/8" out of square on BOTH sides, not just one, which would compound the problem. Not that your opening is like that, I'm just talking hypothetically.

The gap along the hinge side of the door largely depends on the depth of the hinge mortises- both in the jamb AND on the door itself. Normally when hinges come closed, (imagine having a set of uninstalled hinges in your hand) there will be about 1/8" between the hinges when both sides of the hinge are parallel with each other. If the hinge is installed in a mortise that is deeper than the hinge plate is thick, then it will pull the door closer to the jamb. The same could be said for the mortise on the door- if it is deeper than the hinge plate is thick, then the door will be closer to the jamb. That would explain the lack of any gap on the hinge side of your doors. It's also possible that you have hinges that contact each other when the hinge plates are parallel to each other... hard telling.

At any rate, you are right. Any taper you sand along the edge of the door would not be noticable.

I guess it will just make the installation a bit more of a hassle to have to hang the doors just so I can measure, mark and then sand.

So far I have ripped my pieces. Twelve of them 3 7/8.

When it comes to gluing the three layers, what is a good method to stop them from sliding all over? Id like to clamp them all at one time so I dont stretch this out over a week doing one or two at a time.

I figured if I dry fit and clamp, I can then drill a 1/4 hole through them. Straight through the first two and stopping halfway through the last one. Id drill two holes on each rail - one at each end. Then when I glue them, I can drop a 1/4 dowel in the hole and they should stay put. Then Id have two small holes to repair on each stile and rail.

I hate to create work and repairs but Im sure that if i dont have some technique Ill have these things sliding all over and glue everywhere.

If they were all equal length I could just clamp from all sides. Bt of the three that make up each rail/stile the middle one is always a different size than the outside ones.

How would you do this?

Not too much more hassle. You'll probably be test fitting the doors several times anyway. And if you don't mortise the hinges too deep, you'll have that 1/8" gap I talked about and you might not even need to sand anything, because the bulge might not be a problem then. So keep that in mind when you mortise your hinges. Start out with a shallow mortise on each, and test fit them. Your only way to adjust the doors for square will either be: 1) to mortise hinges in some combination of shallow/deep or 2) to cut (or belt sand) the edges of the doors down to fit into the jamb.

(I imagine that once the doors are assembled, you'd want to take some tapered shims, set the doors into the openings [before mortising hinges] and insert shims around the edges of the doors until you have them centered and you are happy with the 1/8" reveals everywhere. You'd use shims as your 1/8" spacers to achieve this- inserting shims all around the edges and between your doors. If something doesn't look right, your opening is off or the doors aren't square. In any case, you'd need to cut/sand the doors until the reveals look good around the edges. And then you could mark the center of each hinge location on the door and the jamb, and remove all the shims and do your mortising.)

But back to your question about assembling them-

Do you have a brad nailer? If so, I'd nail the bottom 2 layers together first. All 4 rails (vertical pieces) are going to be exactly the same, as will all 4 stiles (horizontal pieces). So I'd just do them one at a time. Lay your first piece face down, glue the heck out of it, then lay the middle section on top, and pop some 3/4" brads nails into it to hold it in place so that it doesn't slide. You can nail the heck out if it if you want, instead of clamping... just make sure your nails are short enough to not come out the other side- don't use a 1" nail!

Once you've got the first 2 layers assembled on all 8 pieces, lay them out so they interlock together in the shape of your door, using a lot of glue where they overlap at the corners, and nail them together there, checking diagonals to make sure the center window portion of the door is square.

Now you've got both doors assembled, but only the first 2 layers. So glue the top of the assembled sections and install the remaining pieces of the 3rd layer face up, popping a few brad nails in here and there just to hold it together (you might not want a lot of brad nails in this layer since the nail holes will show. If you don't mind filling them or think that no one will see them 8 ft up, then nail away.)

If you did it in this manner, you might not even need clamps, but they certainly wouldn't hurt! You'd need a LOT of them to clamp it properly, but you could get away with less clamps if you stacked the doors together (one on top of the other) and then clamped them together. Or, depending on the size and number of clamps you have, you could stand up a pair of 2x4's on edge, lay the pair of doors on top of the 2x4's, lay another pair of 2x4's on edge on top of the doors, and then clamp the 2x4's together... (you'd need a clamp that is 3.5+1.5+1.5+3.5 = 10" throat to clamp all that.) I'd say at a minimum you'd need 6 clamps like that- one on each end of each 2x4 and one in the middle of each 2x4. The idea is that you are using the strength of the 2x4 to help distribute the clamping pressure on the door. More clamps would be even better.

Be sure you have some rags and a bucket of water, and wipe off any glue that gets onto the wood surface. Glue doesn't stain up well, but you don't want to scrimp on glue for this project, so don't be afraid of some oozing, but be ready to clean it up. You'll also want to sand the wood well after you take the clamps off so as to take off any excess glue/water residue.

And double check all your measurements before you assemble, maybe even dry-fit everything to make sure it turns out to be the size you want. And even if it turns out to be a little wider than you planned, you can always run the entire thing thru the table saw and cut the doors down a bit if needed. If they are too narrow... well then you need to get the board stretcher. ;)

I think I will build them for a tight fit. Then I can install the right door which i know has a plumb jamb, and make any adjustments on the left door. Id hate to have them too short. I know Ill be adjusting for my bulge anyway - whether its in my hinging or by sanding. Does that make sense?

Ok, about the gluing and clamping. What you explained is nowhere near what I planned on. I planned on doing all the rails and stiles first. Then, when they dried, I would build the doors.

Is it ok to glue in cold weather? I know painting in cold isnt good for the paint and the glue directions say that it should be above 50 F. If I want to do it all at once like you explained, I would need to do it in my garage, at night, where it will get in the 30s. Im assuming all of the water based stuff should be done over 50F. If I could stack all rails and stiles, Id glue in my basement.

Id like to do it all once like you explained. I have plenty of clamps so that shouldnt be a problem.

Yes, that makes sense. But you might try the idea of shimming both doors into the opening, since it allows you to "know where you're at" and will give you a good idea of how they'll work together.

I've got a bottle of glue right here that says "work above 60F". Boy, I wish I could. It probably depends on the brand. You want the glue and the wood to be room temperature, so have all the materials inside prior to assembly so that it will all be warm. Glueing up cold wood that was in the garage (30F) in your warm basement (60F) won't fly, so keep the wood warm. Otherwise it'd be a little bit like glueing two icicles together. But yes, I'd suggest that you glue and assemble in the basement where it's at least 50F.

I think the method for assembly that I mentioned is best for a couple reasons- more fasteners, better glueing and nailing on the corners (the most critical area- you'd want a lot of brad nails where the corners overlap). Also, you will be able to assemble those 2 layered 8 pieces in no time flat, and can quit if needed. Then you could come back and assemble those pieces into doors and quit again. Then when you apply the top 3rd layer (the layer you might not want to put a lot of nails in) that is what would require all the clamping which involves time glueing AND messing with clamps before the glue sets. (with glue, time is of the essance since most glues only have a certain amount of open working time.

If you do it the way you envisioned, assembling all 3 layers then sliding them together, you'll scrape off a lot of the glue off your tenon at the corners as you go to slide them together, which won't result in a joint that is very well glued- and the glue at the corners is ESSENTIAL to the success of this project. And I'm not too keen on the dowel idea but since I've never tried that, I guess I can't knock it. In my mind, however, it would be like using 1 big nail per corner which seems a bit minimal. It would work well for a tenon that was surrounded on all sides by wood, (where you basically just need to prevent the tenon from pulling OUT of the mortise) but your corners have an open end surrounding the tenon, which means they are subject to sag. A pair of dowels oriented vertically at the far left and right edges of the tenon would be better, and a triangle of 3 dowels would be strongest. They'd also likely need to go entirely through the door to do the most good, then be sanded flush. They can always be colored to match the surrounding stain if they don't match. Joinery can be decorative, too, so you don't necessarily need to hide it if you do a nice job and make them symetrical. If you go that route, that is.

Of course, you were asking how I'd do it... heh heh! ;)

The dowel idea was not for strength. It was simply a way of stopping the boards from sliding all over after glue is on them.

Anytime Ive ever glued anything, I glue the pieces and then when the clamp goes on, the boards slide all over as it is tightened - unless you can clamp from all sides to keep your work flush as well as clamping the pieces together.

Its just always a pain to me. I would do the brads for the strength. Because, the boards need to be clamped reasonably tight before brads go in - no?

Or, are you saying that if I glue the pieces and lay them on top of each other with no clamping pressure, I could put the brads in? I guess one at each corner would keep the work stable and THEN I could tighten my clamps - never thought of that - if thats what you mean.

I guess I should start to make some room in the basement. My big workbenchs are in the garage.

Also, when handling these after they are put together... sanding, planing, hanging, moving ,etc. should i put a diagonal cross piece to keep stress off the corners until they are in place.

I guess a triangle of dowels at each corner - after the doors are glued - wouldnt be a bad idea. I wouldnt think that after gluing they would be subject to sag. That would mean that the glue failed - right?

Yes, I'd tack each end and middle with the brad nailer to keep the 2 pieces from sliding, then nail it off, using a line of 3 nails every 6" or so. The impact from the brad nails should pull it tight, but yes, you could always clamp and nail.

IMO, if the doors are left undisturbed while the glue dries, they will be fine to move and handle, provided you don't drop one on its corner or something that would force the door out of square. You could always tack a scrap of plywood to some temporary stops in your window opening- if it fits tight, that would hold the doors square too.

And yes, if the doors sagged later, the glue (and the brad nails you install at the corners) failed. They make a step dowel and step dowel drill bit that works pretty slick for pinning things in the manner you intend. (Miller dowel system).