Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - Yet another overflowing brine tank

Folks,
Add me to the list of folks with an overflowing brine tank, and unsoftened water.

I've looked the unit over for a make/model, but can't find anything. The unit was in our house when we bought it 6.5 years ago, and looks 10-15 years old (though that's an utter guess). And to my delight, I found an article with images about exactly our unit: http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=18197 -- although the floater in their brine tank has a brine well that's about 2-3 inches in diameter -- and ours is only about 1/2 inch wide.

I learned there that I need to clean the brine tank occasionally (who knew? :) ), so I did that this weekend. I checked that the brine refill/purge line was clear. But it hasn't helped.

I read that I need to clean the injector and injector screen -- so I did so. (See this image in particular: http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2000/DJ00_Ask_Handyman/20000101_Ask_Handyman_page002img002_size2.jpg) When I loosened and removed the cap on the left, I pulled out what was clearly a screen. I cleaned it up, and it shows no obstruction now. But...

...but on the right side, I would have expected to see some kind of a nozzle or venturi or such. Instead, when I remove the cap, I find it's just a cap...with about a 1/4 inch long prong protruding from the center. But it's a solid prong. It's not a nozzle in any sense. I see nothing inside the hole revealed by removing this cap that looks out of order or dirty...or accessible.

Other clues to this mystery...


- The image I linked to above shows the day timer and hour timer. I set the hour timer to the correct time two days ago. It hasn't moved. (Smoking gun, you think...?) We notice that the clock/timer mechanism is making a soft ticking sound -- which might mean it's working like...clockwork. Or maybe it's skipping gears. Can't say.

- I tried turning the red knob on the front which turns the camshaft mechanism inside, to open and close various valves. I found a position that causes the water level in the brine tank to slowly go down. It's about halfway between the "Backwash" setting and the "Brine and Refill" setting. When I do, I see the floater-ball in the "Air check" portion of this image http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2000/DJ00_Ask_Handyman/20000101_Ask_Handyman_page002img001_size2.jpg jiggle and sink to about halfway down its cylinder, I assume from water flow in from the brine tank. However, I do hear a faint hissing sound from somewhere inside the mechanism. I see no air bubbles in the tube or the plastic cylinder. Might it be losing suction deeper inside? That might explain the overflowing -- if it's sucking out only 1/2 of what it replaces.

- I just now left the system in this water-lowering state. We'll see if that does anything for us.

- I have tried manually regenerating many times, and I assume it succeeds. But the water never gets soft. What does this tell us? That regeneration is actually failing, and the beads are never "refreshed?" Because as I understand it, after each regeneration, the beads should be processing our house water on demand.

-Yes, the bypass valve is in the proper position for normal usage. Made that mistake just once.



Thanks in advance for your help and expertise in all this. We are hoping to avoid a service call or worse, a replacement. I am willing to open this whole black plastic monster up and start putting food-grade silicone on everything in sight, if that will help.

TomK

Some softeners work strictly on time and other work off of usage. On the softeners that work off of usage there is a cable running from the water manifold to the back of the timer mechanism. You might be hearing that cable as it turns with usage.

On the other hand you may be hearing the electric timer turning, but possible skipping gears. Are you sure it is plugged in and getting power? Yeah, had to ask...

If it is getting power but the time never advances it is a sure sign that you need a service call to rebuild your timer.

Thanks! Yes, the power is definitely on.

And if the timer ain't moving, then yup, it's time for a new one. I presume I can't just replace this one part? Do I need to replace the whole assembly a-top the softener tank? (clock + camshaft + etc.) ?

- Tom

They can be rebuilt, but I have never done one. Always changed the whole thing.

Another symptom, just remembered today as the regeneration cycle was running...

During the regeneration, we have a few minutes when our water runs very "bubbly" through the taps, and tastes distinctly salty. Invariably, my wife or I make a cup of tea at just that time. Delicious.

Does this tell us anything useful?

- Tom

Through the timer settings regeneration should happen during the night, or considering your lifestyle, when there is the least possibility of water usage. During regeneration the valve bypasses the softener. You should get hard water, not salty. The only time you should get salty water is if your softener does not fully rinse the media prior to returning the bypass valve to the normal setting.

Just another sign that your valve needs repair.

I really appreciate all this help...

One new bit of news: the clock ticked off the hours faithfully...until about 3am. At that point the arm on the clock face touched the day-timer wheel and stopped. Odd, since the day-timer wheel puts up no resistance; it turns freely!
(See http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2000/DJ00_Ask_Handyman/20000101_Ask_Handyman_page002img002_size2.jpg.) So it seems the clock is quite unreliable. I recall now that the last time it was stopped, it was also just touching the day-timer wheel.

So...

What do you recommend at this point? I see the options listed here, in decending order of cost (and increasing order of difficulty and likelihood of embarrassing failure):


Get a plumber to come out and pay him to set it all right
Replace the whole valve/timer/bypass mechanism that sits atop the softener tank. Buy a new one, attach it to the tank, and carry on. (Is this possible? Can you buy just the mechanism and not the tank?)
Open up the mechanism myself, find the valve, and by golly, fix it myself.


I am not a plumber, but I'm hardly dumb. It doesn't seem to be that complex a mechanism. I'm willing to give it a go. But I'm tending towards option #2. (My father in law can help me with sweating the pipes together.)

Recommendations?

Tom

Tom,

Sounds like it's time for a new softener. At around 15 years the resin may need to be replaced and you've definately got a problem with the control valve (and it sounds like the much less efficient TIMER style).

Correcting those two problems brings you close to the cost of a new (more efficent) DEMAND regeneration softener that, with proper routine maintanence should last you another 15-20 years.

Are you on a well or water system? You need to get a thorough water test to see what needs to be treated and then considering the SFR of your home and the number of people you can make an informed choice regarding a new softener.

Stay away from pre-built softeners like Sears, GE, Morton, and the like. Not engineered to be repaired, parts are expensive, and they are built with less than the best quality materials.

You can do some research here ... lots of good info
http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php

Post your water test results and the other info so we might be more help.

When you look for a service company for the unit do NOT look for 'plumbers.' Look for 'Water Treatment and Softener' companies. They are all over the place.

I would not be too quick to talk replacement until I got estimates on the repair. The resin should last 20-25+ years with proper maintenance and a clean water entering it. But the Lurker is right, if the cost to repair the timer exceeds what you are willing to accept it might be worth it to consider a new one.

I would not be too quick to talk replacement until I got estimates on the repair. The resin should last 20-25+ years with proper maintenance and a clean water entering it. But the Lurker is right, if the cost to repair the timer exceeds what you are willing to accept it might be worth it to consider a new one.

I'd make a couple calls to local water treatment pros (not plumbers, as mdtaylor pointed out) and get at least a couple estimates for repair BUT ...

Consider the age of your softener, that it is the timer model (less efiicent and more problematic), and that you'd be repairing a 15 year old softener that can be replaced with a new Fleck based demand regeneration softener for about $539 (from the link in my last post or other choices are available). I'd only repair the old softener IF the parts and labor cost was under $150 with some warranty. I can't imagine a competent water treatment pro willing to offer any warranty on the repair of a 15 year old "anonymous" softener unless they completely rebuilt it and I don't believe the cost for a total rebuild will be less than the $539 or thereabouts for a new and more efficent softener.

You guys have been really tremendous with all of this. Many thanks.

We're having a water-treatment company sales guy come out to give us a water test, and propose a price for fixing it. So I should be able to post the water test results before too long.

The link to Ohio Pure Water is much appreciated. I looked around their site, and got a feel for their options and prices. Is this "Fleck" the best brand to go with? I assume the Ohio company is a distributor of the Fleck systems?

Tom

PS - and hey, even if all my machinations didn't fix the darned thing, I seem to have stopped it from overflowing! I have no idea on this great green earth why, however.

Tom,

Fleck and Autotrol are the defacto standards in softener control valves. Both companies have been around for decades and decades. Their control valves can be found on such famous softnener brands as Culligan and Rayne and Fleck valves dominate the "generic" softener market. Parts and service manuals are readily available and there's usually a local water treatment pro who has experience servicing them. The Clack WS-1 control valve has only been around for about 5 years. It was designed by ex-Fleck employees and seems well executed.

The Fleck 5600SE is as relaible as a cinder block, is EZ to setup, and service info is readily available. They do require a special tool to rebuild BUT most local water treatment pros servcie them. They last a LONG time.

Ohio Pure Water is a retailer and sells directly to you (the end user).

Good news on stopping the overflowing. Sometimes the how questions are more important then the why questions.

The valve you have / had is an Autotrol 255 440 and after 15 years the odd timer cogs inside the timer cover on the front of the valve start to wear thin and lose the odd tooth or so on some of the cogs.

Replacement cogs for a few dollars will sort this.

I have even noticed this happen to some of the 440 timer valves after just a few years, but out of say 300 valves maybe only one or two in the earlier years of their life.

The first thing you were probably advised on apart from cleaning out the brine tank and siphon, was to check the elbow fittings on the brine tube both in the tank and on the clear air check to the right of the valve. If these fittings are not completely tight they won't necessarily leak but they will draw air in that plays havoc with the brine draw cycle.

Check the cogs if you haven't already bought a valve, and if you get a valve for heaven's sake, buy a Clack WS1.

As the man said, after decades working for Fleck, a team was put together to learn all the mistakes made on the 1970's fleck units and produce the mother of all valves for Clack.

After fitting around 200 of these, I absolutely guarantee they knock the socks off autotrol and fleck without a second thought.

Like comparing a well specified top of the range mercedes with an old ford or an oldsmobile, or something just old that people have got used to.

On the Autotrol 255/440 timer can the cogs be replaced and if so where do you purchase the replacement cogs???

I think that is my problem..

Thanks for your help

On the Autotrol 255/440 timer can the cogs be replaced and if so where do you purchase the replacement cogs???

I think that is my problem..

Thanks for your help

Autotrol replacement parts ... here (http://softenerparts.zoovy.com/category/1600/)