Air Conditioning - Trane XL16i vs. XL19i with XV90

I've gotten quotes for both AC systems - the 19i is $1,100 more.

I'm in a two story 33 sq. foot brick house in Indianapolis, IN.

We've currently got a 5 ton unit and our quote is for another.

I like the idea of 2 compressors - then again, the price difference is substantial and I wonder if we will feel - in the temp or in our pocketbooks - enough of a difference to justify the cost.

Any thoughts?

Also, another contractor indicated we would be better off with a 4 ton.

Thoughts on that?

Thanks!

I would go with the 16 for your area. I think the 19 is more for the deep south like Fla, where they really get the heat and humidity.

Also, FYI, the outdoor unit on the 19 is VERY large, may want to go to Trane .com and check out the footprint size.

33 sq ft? :-) You mean 3,300?? Has the dealer done a heat gain on your home?

how many BTU is the furnace, that already there is that being changed out as well?

Do you have two stage t-stat now?

Jay - thanks for the quick response. I'm trying to make this decision in relatively short order, so that was definitely helpful. I can see you've been around for a while, making your advice just that much more meaningful and appreciated.

Yah, the sq footage is 3,300 - actually 3,600 if you include the finished partial basement.

While we don't get FL heat and humidity we do get 90+ days for both.

Believe the current AC is 50,000 BTU. Don't know the BTU of the current furnace.

The guy who did the calculation (not the dealer I plan to use) was the one who said a 4 ton would be better. He rated for 2 stories, 21 windows, 3600 sq ft, avg. attic and wall insulation. The house is 40 years old, so it wouldn't surprise me if the wall insulation is less than average (is there any in there at all?) His comment was that too big of a compressor = fluxuations in humidity. From what I've learned, that's not an issue with the 2 stage or 2 compressor models. Even so, no need to overbuy if you don't need it - let alone if the system would be more efficient with the 4 ton. A friend experienced in commercial installs said it's tricky going from 5 to 4 and to be sure...

For the furnace, we currently have a 12 yr. old 80% which will be replaced by the Trane XV90 (variable speed fan, 93%.)

Don't have a 2 stage t-stat as we don't have a 2 stage system. A new t-stat will be included with the new system (which will be the XV90 and either the 16i or 19i.)

Also, the 16i uses 410A and the 19i uses R22 coolant. Understand there is already a R22 replacement called "Hotshot," so I don't know if I'm too concerned with the R22 possible price spike - plus I've got a 10 yr. warranty.

Odd that the top-of-the-line unit doesn't use "tomorrow's" coolant - unless making that change increases the cost considerably... I've heard that R22 units are much cheaper (if you can find them) as everyone is going to the 410A.

That makes me wonder if when the 19i gets updated to use 410A (the 19.1i?) - Will it be considerably more expensive than the current model (meaning the 19i is more of a bargain?)

4 tons sounds about right for your home. Otherwise, if you go 5 tons, returns must be on both sides, or side and bottom.

As for the furnace, min of 100,000 will work on a 4 ton A/C, otherwise, you could go 80,000, but I'd make sure the dealer got the dip switch set at it's max for the blower.

R-22 will be around awhile and I personly like 22. The 410 has been around a few years, and seems like people are getting a hang of it.

To me the 16 is going to be better in the long run.. just one less thing to worry about (Compressor). I honestly don't think the $1,000 more is worth it.

I looked at the sizes, both unit will be the same size.

Glad to see you are planning on the 10 year parts/labor warranity.

do you know what model of t-stat they are putting in?

Getting an Air Cleaner?

I have the XV90 60k furnace, 2 ton XR11 A/C, with Vision Pro t-stat, and Honywell Media air cleaner.

4 tons sounds about right for your home. Otherwise, if you go 5 tons, returns must be on both sides, or side and bottom.

As for the furnace, min of 100,000 will work on a 4 ton A/C, otherwise, you could go 80,000, but I'd make sure the dealer got the dip switch set at it's max for the blower.

R-22 will be around awhile and I personly like 22. The 410 has been around a few years, and seems like people are getting a hang of it.

To me the 16 is going to be better in the long run.. just one less thing to worry about (Compressor). I honestly don't think the $1,000 more is worth it.

I looked at the sizes, both unit will be the same size.

Glad to see you are planning on the 10 year parts/labor warranity.

do you know what model of t-stat they are putting in?

Getting an Air Cleaner?

I have the XV90 60k furnace, 2 ton XR11 A/C, with Vision Pro t-stat, and Honywell Media air cleaner.

Got the returns you describe, so maybe I'll stick with the 5 ton.

Honeywell electronic is what the guy is including (no extra charge!)

Unless somebody sez - "Oh, you *must* get the 19i and here's why...I'll probably go with your recco on the 16i.

Yikes... 5 sounds awful lot!

my ball park figure fell in 4 tons, and so did the one dealer who did the calc.


Ok, on your old 5 ton, on a 90 degree days, how often did it cycle on and off in an hour?

How did you feel temp wise? did you find that you had to turn down the t-stat to be comfortable?

Don't know how often it cycled. Can tell you that the upstairs was prolly 10 degrees warmer - and one room even warmer - when the downstairs was like 70 (very cool.)

So, yes, we had it basically set it to "cold" to get the upstairs relatively comfortable - and even then it was too warm upstairs.

The contractor of choice is going to run an upstairs feed (the only one we could find) directly to the plenium (sp?) (versus it coming off of the top of the main duct at a 90 degree angle) which should improve airflow to the upstairs. I'm also going to add to the attic insulation (unless they tell me it's more than good) and may add a temp controlled exhaust fan to the attic - if the new AC/furnace & change to the ductwork doesn't help enough. These things should help the upstairs difference - and the variable speed fan & two stage compressor should also help.

Do you have any returns up there as well? Lack of return will lead to warmer up stairs since there is nothing up there to help pull the heat away.

How much insulation do you have in the attic? Also help it breath!

Returns in both ends of the upper & lower level.

Don't know about the attic insulation. It doesn't "look bad" but don't know how much I should have. Old attic fan w/o a cover prolly lets in some heat...

Have a vent that runs along the peak (assume that's what you mean by breathing.)

here how much you need. (http://www.betterinsulation.com/A_how_much_insulation_do_you_need.htm)

I think the extra supply upstairs should help out. FYI, with a 2 story home, you will see temp changes between floors.

I've seen magnetic covers for returns and was just wondering...would putting those on the downstairs returns (or one or two of them) increase the hot air being pulled out of the upstairs? ...or would that starve the coil?

That's a hard question for me to answer with out seeing your current duct lay out.

I'd block half of a return. and keep a very close eye on the coil so it don't freeze.. however, with the XV, the blower motor may try hard to make up the lost CFM, may lead to more fan noise.

Jay-

Thx so much for your help.

My installer is going to come by the house and do a load measurement. He agreed that based on a 3300 sq ft 2 story w/ 21 windows, avg. attic & wall insulation (though the walls probably have none as the house was built in '65) - that it looked like a 4 ton would work, but he said he would want to stop by (I wouldn't need to be home) to do the full calc.

As far as the compressor choices, I had kinda thought replacing a small compressor (unlikely they would both go at once) would be cheaper (beyond the 10 years, of course) than a large dual-stage, but for $1k more, I've yet to see what a 19 seer dual compressor would save me over the 16 seer two stage compressor. So, I think I've decided to go with the dual stage 16 vs. the dual compressor 19. Either way, it has to be better than my 10 seer that died.

I'll let you know how it all turns out. It's supposed to be warmer this week, so hopefully by this time next week I'll be posting how much cooler my upstairs is compared to the way it was before.

Keep us posted, and also take a before picture of the whole equipment, and after..

We love seeing pictures.

...how do i get [img] code turned on?

Well, here are links in the meantime:

Compressor (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/hvac1.jpg)
Furnace (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/hvac2.jpg)
Rust from leaking humidifier (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/hvac3.jpg) (that last guy never commented on/repaired even with annual checkups...go figure. Furnace was purchased (with compressor) in the fall of '96.
Ventilation corrections needed (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/hvac4.jpg) 1) remove the 2 90 degree turns and 2) run the 2nd floor supply (at top, going up) directly to plenium

and last, but not least replace the water heater that is more like 15 years old before it ruptures and floods the (finally!) finished partial basement.
Water heater (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/water.jpg)

Thanks for the pictures.

Sad thing, this web site doe not allow pictures. :-( So the IMG code is off.

The equipement don't look too bad, but I agree, the rust on top of the furnace may cause problem.

You'll be happy with the XV90. Hope you are keeping the media air cleaner?

Id go for 2 AC units here if you can work out the duct work for them ok One up and one down. With Jay 4 tons should cut it. Also drop down to a XLi15i Trane high side and a V/S blower on the heater units. This will give you a SEER of 15.10. This will let you get a tax credit
from IRS of $300. The R22 will be here till 2030
so you see thats about all we still sell. I wont tell you what the freon R410a cost us.Its that bad.

Honeywell electronic is what the guy is including (no extra charge!)
Dont do it An EAC not worth it. try the new Trane filter if you want to go with an EAC filter. People dont keep them clean so that they dont work right


Ed my .02 cents;)

Hi Ed -

My original plan was to do just that - 2 units. You say 2 ac units, but I assume you mean two complete systems?

It appears that the duct work/runs will work - it's the returns that don't. There are two main returns - one on each end of the house - which are shared by the upstairs and downstairs.

My guy tells me we can't share returns - so what to do - short of tearing open walls, etc?

I can tell you I am concerned that I get all this done (v/s fan, 2 stage compressor, extra insulation in the attic and an attic exhaust fan) and the upstairs is still hot.

You recommend the 15 - which is not a two-stage compressor. I really liked the idea of a two stage or dual compressor (like the v/s fan - just works as hard as it needs to) and wonder why you vote for the single stage compressor. Thoughts? You mention R22, but doesn't the 15i use 410a?

Also you say 4 ton, but if I can figure out a way to go with a dual system, wouldn't I use something smaller (at least for the lower level?)

I forgot to add on my last post..


You do not have a two sided return on your furnace, so DO NOT go 5 tons. 4 tons should be just fine for your home.

If the dealer shows you the manual J that your home msut have 5 tons, then they better do a a return on both side of the furnace.

interesting.

Speaking of returns, I've been looking around.

I can't really say with 100% certainty that they are shared up and down. I know the up on each end share a run, but can't say it definitely is the same as the down. I can easily confirm and will.

My returns use the spaces between the joists as ducts.

Interestingly, there is a separate run off the main return. I'm wondering it this somhow runs to the 2nd floor. Here (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/hvac5.jpg) is a picture.

Here (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/hvac6.jpg) is where it continues in the furnace room. (interesting side-note, I didn't see the opening in the side of the return part of the furnace until it was lit up in the pic. Bet that helps, not!)

And here (http://www.3ms.com/hvac/hvac7.jpg) is where it goes to get what I now think are the downstairs returns.

It would be the ultimate solution to have separate systems. Is it likely that it's even possible?

Back to the reality of my more likely install:

My guy came out today. The result of his load calculation? A 3.5 ton! And that's with no insulation in the walls (which I think is true.) He figures 41000 btu. This is great news. Certainly it will have to help with humidity swings at the very least. Now I'm concerned that may be too small - but he walked me through all his calculations and I didn't disagree.

Also drop down to a XLi15i Trane high side and a V/S blower on the heater units. This will give you a SEER of 15.10. This will let you get a tax credit from IRS of $300. The R22 will be here till 2030 so you see thats about all we still sell. I wont tell you what the freon R410a cost us.Its that bad.

It may be too late. The 15i my guy has uses 410a as well.

Honeywell electronic is what the guy is including (no extra charge!) Dont do it An EAC not worth it. try the new Trane filter if you want to go with an EAC filter. People dont keep them clean so that they dont work right

You are correct. It is a Honewell, matching the humidifier he installed last summer. Does the Trane require less cleaning, or what about it do you like over the Honeywell? Can I keep the media and also have the Trane? (That way if I haven't cleaned it lately I still have clean air?) After all, it won't cost me much to keep the one I have....

It's really hard for me to see the other ducts.

But, if the load calc shows 3.5, then go 4 tons.

Stay with the media air cleaner you got now, EAC MUST be cleaned every month,. Trane is little less, every other month, and does a MUCH bettter job than EAC.

April Air needs to be changed out twice a year.

It may be too late. The 15i my guy has uses 410a as well.



He can get the XL15i in R 22. He can get what ever you want.Not just what he has.Id sure go that way. As I said the cost of R410a is out of this world for now. Also if you do have a leak with 410a and it is over 50%low .We have to pull all the rest of the R410a out of the unit and recharge it with all new freon. This is because R410a is a mix of freon and they dont burn off at the same temp. Also if you check the top of the line the XL19i is still only R22.

ED;)

Ed -

I hear you on the r22.

I'm getting the 10 year warranty. It hardly seems worth it to spend the extra $1k to get the 19i over the 16i - even if it does use r22 - Do you disagree?

The best pay back you can get for your $$$ is go with the XL15i and R22. This is what we use for older homes. Builders want the XL14i for the lower cost.I also like the climatuff compressor that is in the XL19i XL15i XL14i the XL16i is the only on that has the 2-stage scroll compressor in it.

ED;)