Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - Kinetico 2 tank- Brine Tank not filling

Brine tank does not fill with water during the regeneration stage.

There is only a few inches of water in the tank...

1. How high should the water level rise during regeneration?

2. Where should the 'float' itself be on the stick... It moves very easierly up and down. Currently it is as far down as it can go. Should it be much higher? How high?

Thanks,
Paboo

Without more details on the actual equipment you have, the conditions of the water you are trying to correct, the metering disk selection, and the size of your brine drum/tanks (model number), it is impossible to provide the correct adjustments.

It sounds like someone has monkeyed with the system and now it needs adjustment. The water should come above grid plate but depending on the settings, the levels may vary. The float actuates the shut-off for the brine refill.

Let me know some of the above details.

Let's assume no one was "monkeying around" with the unit because even Kinetico systems can require service. Regardless of the model, check to make sure the brine drum is not dirty. If so, clean it out and consider a prefilter for the unit. Quality of salt used can contribute to this, too. The brine elbow or brine flow control may have also become plugged and would need to be cleaned or replaced. See if that helps.

Art

MORE INFO...

I took the float assembly out and was able to push down on the rod... water comes out. If I pull up on the rod (i.e. like the float would pull up the rod), then the water shuts off. So don't think the control valve is plugged.

...The water should come above grid plate but depending on the settings, the levels may vary...

I think you indirectly answered my 2nd question... The float should not be on the bottom, but you don't know how far up on the rod it should go.

As for anyone monkeying around with the system... that would be me. Don't ever recall pushing the float down on purpose, but might of done so by accident.

How far up should the water go? Give me an estimate? 6" 12" 18"???

You assumed absolutely correctly. The float should not be all the way down. That would serve no purpose except shut off water right away.

I'm glad to hear that the water comes through as it should when the float valve is activated. The float should not be able to move up and down along the rod on its own; it needs some force to change its location. If it does then it needs to be replaced but I have never seen that happen before. Please describe any markings you see on that rod.

As for the correct location, again, without knowing the details of your equipment, water conditions, etc., (as mentioned above) then any setting would be a guess and chances are you will either have too much or too little salt when regenerating.

I think your fix is very simple and you can have it running back to normal without any service call or parts replacement.

What is the condition of your brine drum water, clear/murky? What other water treatment equipment do you have before (prefilter) or after (RO) the system? Pipe size? Pump type? Pressure settings? Type of salt? I know these are a lot of questions but understanding these details is very important when designing, installing, or adjusting equipment.

Let's know.

Paboo,

One more question, sorry. At the bottom of the rod is a black plastic base with some tabs, Some are snapped off and some remain. You may have to look very closely at the letters on them but where do the snapped tabs end and where do the remaining ones start. You should see small letters on them.

There are a couple of different adjustments (metering disk, float settings and base setting) on each system designed to hone in on the exact water conditions come from the source water and salt effeciency. Although these settings, once set by the installer, should not have to be adjusted again, certain conditions may require it such as moving ot a new location, change in water conditions (well to city) or accidental misadjustment somewhere down the road, etc.

Thanks for your patience...

Glad to hear that the low float position is most likely causing the problem.

At work now.... The rod did a have a few black marks spaced apart on the top 1/3 of the rod... I will go ahead and get all the info you are requesting and post when I get back into work on Monday. I'm sure you'll be able to tell me black mark I should set the float at.

Thanks again,
Paboo

No problem, Just let me know. You can email direct if you wish.

Have a nice weekend.

Figured it would be easier just to provide some pictures:

NOTE: Brine tank is about 3 feet tall.

<img src=http://www.ajzworld.com/booth/temp/sw001.jpg><br><br>
<img src=http://www.ajzworld.com/booth/temp/sw002.jpg><br><br>
<img src=http://www.ajzworld.com/booth/temp/sw003.jpg><br><br>

Couple more photos:

<img src=http://www.ajzworld.com/booth/temp/sw004.jpg><br><br>
<img src=http://www.ajzworld.com/booth/temp/sw005.jpg><br><br>

Paboo,

Thanks, That really helps. Now what I need is the number on the disk at the top of the valve and your water results ... hardness, iron, TDS if you can? The correct settings will be very easy to set on the float. Also, what kind of salt arer you using. Is that solar salt? It might be a good time to clean out the brine tank if you can get a chance to do that.

Take care.

I'm confused as to what disk you are refering to... Can you see it in those photos I sent? If not, please let me know exactly where I can find it.

As for hardness... I just refilled my swimming pool and pool store said my TDS was 650...

As for the salt... I bought it at home depot... I will use up the rest of what's in there and clean out the tank. Good idea.

FYI... Water in the house is soft again, so system is working :)

Another question... you can see in one of the photos above that there is water in the brine tank (about 12") .... Is water suppose to be in there a majority of the time (opposed to the water being below the salt plate)? Or just during the short regenaration cycle?

BTW... I really appreciate your help in getting this think running again.

Thanks,
Paboo

Paboo,

At the top of the valve there is a clear lens fastened by eight short stainless bolts. Look through the lens and you will see a disk about 2.5" in diameter. On that disk are some numbers. One 1, or two 2s, or three 3s etc., up to eight 8s. This will indicate how many gallons between regenerations.

I'm still not sure what your hardness is (either in grains per gallon or parts per million). TDS info can help a little but not the whole story. You can get this information at a Sears store and other places. Have them check for iron as well.

Try this at first, put the top of the float so it is positioned at the bottom black mark on the rod. This will allow water to rise far enough to dissolve salt for regeneration. This is your most efficient setting. You should be using 1.25 lbs per regeneration. By understanding the disk number, we can set it to its most efficient setting. Again, use a high quality salt.

This is a packed bed, up-flow softener. Do you have a prefilter?

There are only 2s (directly across from each other) on the disk.

I will go ahead and set the top of the float to the bottom most black line. I'll eventually get around to getting the water tested at sears as well.

1. So what do these numbers mean: 30/50 MW (on side of control valve... see photo) and W-1-14 (on bottom of flow rod unit... see photo)

2. Would love for you to explain in detail why I should not use the standard Home Depot salt?

3. Also, please explain in detail why I need prefiilter?

Paboo

Paboo,

Thank you for that information. I was thinking it was a #1 or #2 disk. What this disk does is meter the water. A #1 disk will go around 360 degrees before going into regeneration, 2 is 180, 3 is 120 and so on. The higher the disk the fewer the gallons between regenerations. The float fine tunes the set up to provide very efficient salt use and softening ability.

The #2 disk will regenerate every 300 gallons. In fact this is the same unit I have in my house. The numbers on the side may indicate quality control checks from the factory. Kinetico manufactures all its products on site at their factory in Newbury OH. As they go through different stages of testing, personnel mark them for purposes of quality control or identification. I am not sure about the markings on the brine float base.

I didn't mean to say NOT to buy from any particular store, but it benefits you to use only the highest quality salt. Rock salts and many solar salts contain a higher amount of dirt and other contaminants. We recommend using evaporated salts.

http://www.lenntech.com/water-softener-FAQ.htm

Your softener uses a very efficient technology called up-flow service. This means the water enters the tanks from the bottom and regenerates from the top, reverse of typical softeners. The resin beds are packed tightly so there should be no iron or manganese present in any significant quantities. Both tanks are running at the same time except during regeneration.

This explains a little about packed beds with variations for industrial use.
http://www.mecobiopharm.com/products/softening/upcore.html

Because of the packed beds, the water should be as clear as possible from sediment as there is not the space to wash out particles that may enter the softener. If you are on well water, use a sediment filter. If on city water, use a carbon filter to avoid chlorine damage to the resin.

I hope this was clear. Good luck with your water.

Please, still let me know the hardness and iron of your raw water to make sure the settings are correct.

My repair guy sayes the brine tank should be 1/3 to 1/2 way filled with water. The unit will only suck out so water when needed. So just raise the float a little bit, the markings could have been a guide for someone who tried to decrease the amount of softness felt. Water testing can be done at your local health dept. for little cost.

Please do not follow Willywhy's advice. It won't work as his 'repair guy' stated. Health departments in my area do not test for aesthetic water qualities and care little more.

Sorry to hijack an old thread, but I have the exact same system with a #2 disk. Does the salt tank only fill when the system regenerates? I pull the float assembly out and deliberately push on the rod. water came out until I pulled the rodd back up. How does the system get the brine mix? Does it fill the brine tank until it gets to the top of the tank and run out what looks like an over flow into to the softener? With the current level of water, I don't see how the brine mix actually can get to the softener (I guess there is something I'm missing). When I pushed on the rod it took, what I would consider a signifigant amount of force to make water start flowing, but very little force to pull up on the rod to stop the water. I can't find any info on exactly how the mechanics of this system works. Thanks in advance.

The water level in the drine tank should not raise very high. You will find a plastic grid plate that is about four inches off the bottom.

Typical settings will cause water to rise another 1-2" above the plate. Here water comes into contact with the salt and dissolves it making the brine solution.

Then ithe brine solution is drawn into the softener during the regeration cycle. After regeration the brine tank fills with treated water; this helps reduce service calls as the water is already treated and 'clean'.

The position of the float, quality of salt, water pressure and softener settings will all need to be accurate to work efficiently.

Thanks for the info. So what you are saying is the tube which fills the brine tank is the same tube which draws the brine mixture into the softener. I guess I expected that when I pulled the brine valve/ float assembly out of the tank that water would run, since the float was not in water. So this will only happen during regenertion and the float is only used during the refill stage. Does this sound correct? I called the kinetico dealer and scheduled a quick check of the system and also for them to show me the in's and outs of maintenance. I've been putting in Diamond Crystal (crystal) softener salt, is this ok. I also saw, at the hardware store, Diamond Crystal Softener Pellets (this was a few dollars more). What do you recommend. The Kinetico dealer is 25-30 miles away and I'd like to use something readily available. Here is a link to what I have been using.

http://www.cargillsalt.com/food/dc_salt_water_cond_solarexcoar.htm#TopOfPage

Yes, the same tube is used to supply and draw liquids for the brine drum. There are many brands of salt to choose from. Rule of thumb is the 'purer' the salt the fewer the problems.

Try to use the best you can get. For the few extra cents you spend initially, the less you may have to spend on maintenance or repairs. Most high quality salts are 99.something % pure.

Rock salt and many solar salts are dirty. This can cause problems as sludge develops and the water becomes dirty. Are you using any kind of prefilter?

It is good that you have called technical support. That should get you up and running quickly and avoid the guess work and experimenting with settings and adjustments.

Also, be careful handling the float mechanism as it can cause the float to lose its pre-set position.

If by pre-filter you mean before the softener then yes there is a 20" filter on the main water line going to the softener. Thanks for all your help. I have a much better understanding of how this thing works. The local dealer wants $65/ hour to come out to check over the system and show me some things. They said it should only take an hour so I think, if nothing else, it is the cost of education. According to their records they checked it out this past Sept (before I owned the home) they said it was a model 50 and that without it the water measured 11 grains of hardness (whatever that means). Thanks for all your help Andy.