Insulation, Radiant and Vapor Barriers - Hy-Tech Insulating Additives & Paints

Hello,
Anyone Have any experience using this insulating additive to paint your interior walls? The testamonials on the website are impressive. The claims are that heat is not absorbed by the wall treated with this additive and the heat is reflected back into the room. Check it out at:
www.xxxxx.com

I too, would like to know of anyone who has experience at all with these products. I know home depot does not sell the ceramic powder to be added to paint and Im not sure of anywhere locally that this can be found. I originally read about this back in 03 in a newpaper artical, the author has a weekly or biweekly colum (james dulley I think is his name) and the topic was that it really did work. He never went into any real specifics like brand names or any other proof beside the fact that the room he painted felt warmer.

If I can pick it up locally and it isnt too expensive, I plan on using an infrared temp gun on both a painted and an unpainted section of my concrete floor to prove weather or not it works. This is actually what its being considered for, my house has a concrete slab and before we finish the remodel Id like to do something to keep the floor a little warmer before we put the laminate flooring down.

Ive been searching this forum a lot the last few weeks looking for any definitive proof about this stuff, this topic is what made me finally register to be a member.

dbdraggin,
If this product does perform, then its worth the price of $21.15 with the shipping for a 1 gallon mix. I did not see any recommendations that it can be used on ground slabs. Email them about that.
I am awaiting a reply from Dow to see if their rigid foam board can be applied to the limited space in my walls ( there is only a 3/4 space). If Their product can be applied, then I would install that, then proceed to use the Hy-Tech additive to paint the sheetrock. This would certainly increase the R value much more.

The 3 heat transfer mechanisms are Conduction, Convection and Radiant. Paints or Additives that reflect heat only deal with Radiant Heat Transfer. Which by the way is the dominant heat transfer mechanism during the cooling season. In other words the majority of heat gain during the summer in your home is a result of objects, like your roof, getting hot. The hotter an object gets, the more heat the objects will radiate. Conduction and Convective heat transfer still occurs but not as much as the radiant heat transfer from an average roof during the summer. Conduction plays a very close second to radiant heat transfer during the summer concerning heat gain inside your home.

During the winter, the dominant heat transfer mechanism is Conduction. Convection plays a close second and radiant is almost insignificant concerning heat loss. Equilibrium is alway sought, even with radiant heat transfer. Once the temperature surrounding an object that is radiating heat is the same as the object, the object no longer radiates heat. And if that object becomes cooler that the objects surrounding it, it will absorb heat from the objects surrounding it.

In other words, if your exterior walls are cooler than the interior of the house, the exterior walls will absorb heat from the interior of the house until the temperatures of the interior of the house and exterior walls are equal.

resercon,
<In other words, if your exterior walls are cooler than the interior of the house, the exterior walls will absorb heat from the interior of the house until the temperatures of the interior of the house and exterior walls are equal.>
That sounds logical but the companys product interferes with this absorbtion.
Their product consist of tiny ceramic balls that are in vacumn that when the product dries, these balls gather so close together that the surface becomes smooth. There's a law of physics I believe that states that heat cannot travel past a vacumn or something to that effect. Then if thats true, the heat will reflect back into the room.

resercon,

I understand that reply and the rules stated, but im not sure if you were making a case "for" or "against" the product. are you familier with this product? a yes or no answer doesnt discount your statement or its value but if you are familier with this and how its "suppose" to work do you think it could work? everywhere ive read always refers to the space shuttles outer skin and how it protects from the friction of our planets atmosphere, so it seems like it may have a basis of some truth

thanks,

Russ

Resercon
You would be correct if all items inside the home were at a uniform temperature - in this case, there would be no radiant drive to the drywall surfaces.

In reality, windwashing, convective losses, conductive losses, stratification, solar heat gain, heat emitting devices like cook-tops, lights, plants, etc create the minute differences in temperature that allow radiant heat transfer.

Because of this, a high-reflectivity coating IS a good idea for the interior face of walls. Most people just aren't willing to live with having foil facing on their walls.

There are a number of firms working with the Canadian govt to develop vaccuum-sealed panels for insulating with. Unfortunately, as with this paint, the structural requirements to maintain the vaccuum offer paths for heat flow, reducing the contribution that the actual vaccuum can make.

Doug makes some good points however, when dealing wiith applications that you intend to reduce heat loss, one must have a fairly good understanding on heat transfer. The mechanisms are conduction which deals with solid materials; Convection which deal with air; and Radiant which deals with electrocmagnetic radiation. What is just as important as this is, it is equally important to understand how these mechanisms interact with each other.

For example take a boiling pot of water. Though the heat is being introduced at the bottom of the pot, the top of the pot is hot (conductive heat transfer). If you held your hand a foot away from the pot you would sense heat. However, if you bring your hand closer to the pot, the more heat your hand would sense. Though radiant heat dissipates as it gets further away from the pot the amount of heat that does dissipates is not influenced as much by distance as it is influenced by air (convective heat transfer). If there were no air around the pot, you would sense heat coming from the pot much further away from it. This also explains why the heat from the sun reaches the earth, there is no air in outer space. And to the point concerning a vacuum seal.

Pressure induced heat flow is indeed convective heat transfer mechanism because it involves air. The same is true with wind pressure, stratification and Hi/Low/Neutral pressure zones because they all involve air. But pressure induce heat flow influences conduction which makes conductive heat transfer the dominant heat transfer mechanism during the winter.

wow. so since this has seemed to turn into a my iq is higher than yours match, i guess its safe to say no one has any experience with this product huh? and since no one really has come out and given an opinion one way or another on weather they feel this product could be a feasible means for additional heat loss prevention, i guess we're left to look elsewhere for others less willing to talk over the average persons head and might actually be willing to share a real opinion.

thanks for proving youre so smart, now i realize why ive been reluctant to join this forum in the past. between moderators insistant on talking above someones head and that person in turn needing to constantly ask for translation, and many moderators canned response to "seek out a professional to do the job" (although the name of this site might suggest the orignial poster was looking to do otherwise) its amazing this site has the traffic it does.

dont worry, you wont have to tell me if i dont like it i dont have to come back.

dbdnaggin,
Most replies mean well but I have to say that sometimes some responces do get carried away. its good to know theory about heat transfer but the new technology does show some promise. We who are trying to understand it all must weigh whether its worth it or not to add the product to walls with limited space of 3/4 inch between sheetrock and the masonary.
What we are dealing with here is the taking of existing facts or theory on heat transfer and circumventing it to meet existing conditions using new technology. Who knows; it might even pay to add the product under any conditions.

I really don't think anyone is trying to talk above any one's head.

When you need to understand something you have to look at the facts to be able to make a proper judgement.
There are sales techniques that rely on "belief" to sell a product.
The number one method of making someone believe something is true is with testimonials which are how these products are sold.
resercon is offering the facts about heat transfer to put the fact that radiation, what insulating paint is all about, is such a small part of heat loss that it is a waste of time and money to concentrate on this a way of saving energy.

You need to do research to be able to make an inteligent decision about something.
I have a number of links but I will let you find your own that put the reflective barrier industry into perspective.
You have to be willing to look at the facts of which a glowing review from a customer is not.
There are a number of government reports on the web whose opinion is that these products are not cost effective.

If you wish to comment further that is fine but I would suggest you do not sulk or be indignant that we are not supporting your cause.

By day I do this for a living on a professional level and sell nothing related to this and have nothing to gain or loose by my position.
By night I spend some time here trying to keep things at this forum on a decent level.
What I also do here is weed through posts like this where sellers pose as regular members for personal gain................................ I haven't had a chance to sort this one out yet.

One thing I forgot to add is there was mention of using an infrared temperature scanner to look for heat loss.

I will comment that infrared thermometers require interpretation in their use.
The reflectivity of the surface affects the reading.
This means a shiny surface will give you a different temperature reading than a dull one, even when at the same temperature.
Also, more expensive infrared thermometers have adjustments for the texture of the surface you are scanning.

Innacurate readings using these devices are a consequence of making them available for general use.
They do not give cut and dried readings.

Hello all,

I must admit that a lot of the technical stuff is above my head...but I work in a different field. Not to dismiss the information though...because I've learned even more than I did before I made my buying decision.

Here's all I know about this stuff.
I had to paint my house because of the hurricanes. Wind blew water right through the walls of the house (as in hundreds of others in "cheap built" central Florida).
The association changed the "approved colors" since we moved in so we could not paint the same color. We had to go 4 shades darker to fit into the new scheme. I researched paint and found this additive on the web. Looked into a few of them and went with the one NASA had an article about.
I spent 114 on the product and another 12 on shipping. My painter mixed it in and painted two coats after priming.

So here's what happened...
I got my next electric bill for cooling the house...and it dropped from $235 down to $180. The average temperature for the months was about the same. I looked at my usage history online and found out that we went from 66 kilowatt hours per day last year during the same month...to 55 this year. And....this month was hotter than the same one last year!

All I know is that the house is 4 shades darker....our bill took a steep dive, I've gotten more than what I spent back in my pocket so far....but my wife seems to shop more because of this. What can you do......

I sent a copy of my electric bill to Hy-Tech and they said they would scan it and add it to their web site. I haven't looked to see if it's there yet.

C.J.

Is all this based on a one month utility reading that may not be correct or realistic?

The last time I heard, people evaluated products and systems on an annual basis (dynamic seasonal conditions) as a minimum, but usually a more accurate two to five year period.

Only the pink panther uses a 24 hour ideal window of conditions in a laboratory to justify questionable properties for real life situations,.

Dick

I have used ceramic coatings for the past 6 years. Similar products have existed for more than 10. I must admit that when I first looked at the various products on the market I was a skeptic as it appeared too good to be true. What I found was that the various companies were marketing their products without adequate proof. They were making baseless statements that their product provided R28 and so forth. I still have the brochures. Too often have I heard of people who used these products with disappointing results. Some have been penalized by the courts in both Canada and the US. Unfortunately such individuals who operate these companies spring up elsewhere under a new name. This does not help the industry but there are bad apples anywhere you look. This does not mean there are not good effective products.

One of the main reasons for selecting the products I currently use is because the manufacturer puts considerable resources in product devellopment. The ceramics they have selected is key. You may have heard of the ceramic microspheres or hollowspheres or just plain ceramic powders that are used. All of these products will probably give you some results however you need to know for one there are hundreds of ceramics to choose from. Are they all the same? Of course not. Most of these companies appear to use a single reflective ceramic. This is where the products I choose to use differs. They use a multi-ceramic approach. I won't get into the specifics however there are 4 different types. Two are reflective, one is a microsphere (airspace) and another is UV resistant (thus non-deteriorating).

The manufacturer I deal with currently offer six different multi-ceramic coatings as the approach is based upon the notion there is no silver bullet or one horse wonder that will solve every problem. These products have been engineered for specific temperature ranges. They are also designed for industrial applications which means not only are they expected to perform in harsh environments they must be able to withstand the exposure to a wide range of acids and so forth.

I have applied them to ice arenas, most recently the 30 million dollar Victoria ice arena (Save-on Foods Memorial Centre). The objective here is to repel heat from the surface in order to maintain proper interior temperatures. The product I selected required insulating and durability first and formost. Incidently, the company that built the arena had previously approached me on another arena project in Parksville a couple of years earlier. This company also owns several large arenas and leases them to the communities. After milking me for information they went to a cheaper product they found on the internet. Let's just say it turned into a huge problem which resulted in him contacting me for the Victoria arena project as it was very high profile. He realised that all of the product certifications I had shown him really did mean something and that going cheap was not the answer.

There is no shortage of unscrupulous people out there. There is an individual out of Seattle who based his reputation on the same products I currently use. He attempted to outbid someone else on a job who was providing the same products except he forgot to tell the customer that the product he was now promoting was a cheaper one he had found on the internet. He told the customer he had access to better pricing for the exact same product. I looked at this guys website and he has changed the name of the product he says he used on his website. It's no wonder there is so much confusion in this industry.