Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - B & B water treatment suggestions...con't
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ChrisJ
02-12-06, 12:51 PM
Andy
I came back on line and found my link had been locked down. I know it’s important to maintain protocol so I hope we can keep on the topic and within the bounds of common interest. Please refer to the other thread for water details.
Well, The demo Friday night went very well and by far the most informative and best presented. He took almost three hours but very easy pace and time went by quickly. He walked around the whole house, looked in bathrooms and toilets, check water pressure and flowrate with some kind of special hose with gauges on it. He did all the tests the others did but spent more time with sink demonstrations with a mini softener/filter that he brought wth him.
He used a computer with tons of information and diagrams and comparisons. It clearly showed the difference between types of softeners and filter systems. He asked lots of questions about the guests. Even Evelyn was curious and asked very good questions, especially about skin and hair. He was packing up and told me to call him back when I was ready. In fact, he didn’t even offer a price till I asked him. He even told me to check around and compare. Well, I sat him back down and he drew out a good, better, best plan. He also did a number of RO demos which nobody eles did. I mentioned one of his plans below.
These are the details of my plumbing. I am switching my 3/4 pipe to one inch from the pressure tank through the water treatment system whichever that may be and as a trunk line to the first and second floors. From there it will go to 3/4 as is to all the baths and laundry, 1/2 to sinks.
The laundry is in the basement...washer is front loading. The first floor has 1.5 baths. The half bath is off the living room for guests. It was a whole bath but we cut it down and added a pantry in space of the tube. The other bath is ours in the back with shower only. There is a kitchen triple sink and small commecial ice maker coming to the pantry along with ice maker in the fridge. One dishwasher. Two outside hoses, one soft the other hard. We may put a hot tube outside in the future....
On the second, there will be three baths, two with showers and one with medium sized jaccuzzi. I want to put a drinking water in each guest bathroom, one in the kitchen and hooked up to ice maker and fridge. Right now most of that plumbing can be done if I get it done this week. One or two walls may have to be cut into but that can be fixed no problem.
The total number of guests would be around 3-4 couples at any one time. Plus Evelyn and me. We may have to get an additional or bigger washer in the future. We have a 40gallon gas water heater but may get another one if demand doesn’t work. Considering hot water on demand systems, but...first things first.
The salesman said he would design a system that will take care of all my water needs and he actually pointed out some additional situations (options) I hadn’t considered before. I don’t want to say just yet all that he recommended or how much he asked for...it wasn’t the cheapest, gulp...for sure.
I am looking at a two week window to finish up barring any set backs. And first guests have already reserved rooms for March 10-12. And I thought the hotel business was nerve racking....THIS IS RETIREMENT???
Thanks so much for all your help
His system was very different. By the time he came here I had enough questions to ask. I have read in the forums some of the details but was never sure if I had understood it. He suggested two-twin tank filter/softeners into a UV into a light commercial RO. He was very thorough and
The softeners use a combination filter media and softener resin. It goes into a backwashing ceramic filter media that filters down to 3-5 microns and then into the resin beds. He said that consistent flow rate would be over 20 gpm and maximum up to 35 gpm. He said at any one time at least 75% of the system is giving water service.
The UV is a Hallett with 30 gpm (1” line)or two Platinum Sterilght 12 gpm (3/4”) systems. I think I would rather have the dual system in case one goes out. Both these are Class A systems. He didn’t recommend ozone unless I had high iron or sulphur, too. He said chrlorination/dechoriantion system would reduce pressure more, use more space and needs to be maintained with chemical supplies and the carbon would eventually need to be replaced. We would have to figure the best time of day to backwash unless it was a twin filter system. It didn’t sound like the best option. UV bulbs need to be replaced once a year but little pressure loss and I am assured of disinfection.
I’m just reading from the info sheet. The commercial RO uses a 1/4 hp motor. It produces 240 gpd at 55F at 500 TDS. It has a 40” x 2.5” membrane and washes itself at end of service. An additional membrane can be added if service rate is low. He recommends a 40-80 gallon fiberglass tank with 1/2 line going to all guest rooms and other RO outlets. He will install all the faucets and piping. The rejection rate is 97% - 99%. Normal operating pressure is 105 psi. He asked for information on the commercial ice maker and wanted me to be sure that it is clean and in good working order. He could not be responsible for ice quality or feed rate on the used model.
This was the most expensive of the three quotes that I have had so far but was also doing a lot more with the install. The warranty was pretty good on all parts. He said even though it was a commercial application he would give me a residential warranty because total water use was small and it is placed in a home. The system would also pass inspection of the county and he would pay for permits and submit system design to the health board.
Another one advised using a pellet chlorinator followed by a 2 cubic foot carbon with a bacwash valve and then a twin Fleck valve with 3 cuft total resin or 4 cuft as an option. The RO would be a Merlin with two 3.6 gallon tanks and a booster and Shurflo accummulator, which I am not sure what that is. If that softener was too small use a Fleck 9500 but that would be quite large I think 8 cuft of resin and 16” tanks, but not sure if that’s what he meant. I am still waiting for some answers to questions there as well.
Well, we are still not completely decided.
Chris
I came back on line and found my link had been locked down. I know it’s important to maintain protocol so I hope we can keep on the topic and within the bounds of common interest. Please refer to the other thread for water details.
Well, The demo Friday night went very well and by far the most informative and best presented. He took almost three hours but very easy pace and time went by quickly. He walked around the whole house, looked in bathrooms and toilets, check water pressure and flowrate with some kind of special hose with gauges on it. He did all the tests the others did but spent more time with sink demonstrations with a mini softener/filter that he brought wth him.
He used a computer with tons of information and diagrams and comparisons. It clearly showed the difference between types of softeners and filter systems. He asked lots of questions about the guests. Even Evelyn was curious and asked very good questions, especially about skin and hair. He was packing up and told me to call him back when I was ready. In fact, he didn’t even offer a price till I asked him. He even told me to check around and compare. Well, I sat him back down and he drew out a good, better, best plan. He also did a number of RO demos which nobody eles did. I mentioned one of his plans below.
These are the details of my plumbing. I am switching my 3/4 pipe to one inch from the pressure tank through the water treatment system whichever that may be and as a trunk line to the first and second floors. From there it will go to 3/4 as is to all the baths and laundry, 1/2 to sinks.
The laundry is in the basement...washer is front loading. The first floor has 1.5 baths. The half bath is off the living room for guests. It was a whole bath but we cut it down and added a pantry in space of the tube. The other bath is ours in the back with shower only. There is a kitchen triple sink and small commecial ice maker coming to the pantry along with ice maker in the fridge. One dishwasher. Two outside hoses, one soft the other hard. We may put a hot tube outside in the future....
On the second, there will be three baths, two with showers and one with medium sized jaccuzzi. I want to put a drinking water in each guest bathroom, one in the kitchen and hooked up to ice maker and fridge. Right now most of that plumbing can be done if I get it done this week. One or two walls may have to be cut into but that can be fixed no problem.
The total number of guests would be around 3-4 couples at any one time. Plus Evelyn and me. We may have to get an additional or bigger washer in the future. We have a 40gallon gas water heater but may get another one if demand doesn’t work. Considering hot water on demand systems, but...first things first.
The salesman said he would design a system that will take care of all my water needs and he actually pointed out some additional situations (options) I hadn’t considered before. I don’t want to say just yet all that he recommended or how much he asked for...it wasn’t the cheapest, gulp...for sure.
I am looking at a two week window to finish up barring any set backs. And first guests have already reserved rooms for March 10-12. And I thought the hotel business was nerve racking....THIS IS RETIREMENT???
Thanks so much for all your help
His system was very different. By the time he came here I had enough questions to ask. I have read in the forums some of the details but was never sure if I had understood it. He suggested two-twin tank filter/softeners into a UV into a light commercial RO. He was very thorough and
The softeners use a combination filter media and softener resin. It goes into a backwashing ceramic filter media that filters down to 3-5 microns and then into the resin beds. He said that consistent flow rate would be over 20 gpm and maximum up to 35 gpm. He said at any one time at least 75% of the system is giving water service.
The UV is a Hallett with 30 gpm (1” line)or two Platinum Sterilght 12 gpm (3/4”) systems. I think I would rather have the dual system in case one goes out. Both these are Class A systems. He didn’t recommend ozone unless I had high iron or sulphur, too. He said chrlorination/dechoriantion system would reduce pressure more, use more space and needs to be maintained with chemical supplies and the carbon would eventually need to be replaced. We would have to figure the best time of day to backwash unless it was a twin filter system. It didn’t sound like the best option. UV bulbs need to be replaced once a year but little pressure loss and I am assured of disinfection.
I’m just reading from the info sheet. The commercial RO uses a 1/4 hp motor. It produces 240 gpd at 55F at 500 TDS. It has a 40” x 2.5” membrane and washes itself at end of service. An additional membrane can be added if service rate is low. He recommends a 40-80 gallon fiberglass tank with 1/2 line going to all guest rooms and other RO outlets. He will install all the faucets and piping. The rejection rate is 97% - 99%. Normal operating pressure is 105 psi. He asked for information on the commercial ice maker and wanted me to be sure that it is clean and in good working order. He could not be responsible for ice quality or feed rate on the used model.
This was the most expensive of the three quotes that I have had so far but was also doing a lot more with the install. The warranty was pretty good on all parts. He said even though it was a commercial application he would give me a residential warranty because total water use was small and it is placed in a home. The system would also pass inspection of the county and he would pay for permits and submit system design to the health board.
Another one advised using a pellet chlorinator followed by a 2 cubic foot carbon with a bacwash valve and then a twin Fleck valve with 3 cuft total resin or 4 cuft as an option. The RO would be a Merlin with two 3.6 gallon tanks and a booster and Shurflo accummulator, which I am not sure what that is. If that softener was too small use a Fleck 9500 but that would be quite large I think 8 cuft of resin and 16” tanks, but not sure if that’s what he meant. I am still waiting for some answers to questions there as well.
Well, we are still not completely decided.
Chris
justalurker
02-12-06, 01:39 PM
Hi Chris,
So now that the demos are done you have to make a choice ... but whatever choice you make GET IT IN WRITING. This is a business expense and you are a businessman.
The final demo was the most complete, most concise, one stop total solution to your needs and includes an on-site warranty from a dealer in your area who stocks parts, complete install, permitting and all legal requirements, and was "no pressure" and professional. You say it was the most expensive. I see it as a complete vertical solution where you write a check and a professional water treatment company shows up and does its job and you open your B&B.
Sounds like a dollars worth for a dollar to me.
The previous demos didn't seem to satisfy you so the other option is "water treament buffet" with no installation, no on-site service, a "long distance" parts only warranty, and you have to resolve whatever problems surface during installation or after and hope everything works and plays well together. You'll send money to someone you've never seen and has never seen your specific needs at your location.
Awaiting news of your decision
So now that the demos are done you have to make a choice ... but whatever choice you make GET IT IN WRITING. This is a business expense and you are a businessman.
The final demo was the most complete, most concise, one stop total solution to your needs and includes an on-site warranty from a dealer in your area who stocks parts, complete install, permitting and all legal requirements, and was "no pressure" and professional. You say it was the most expensive. I see it as a complete vertical solution where you write a check and a professional water treatment company shows up and does its job and you open your B&B.
Sounds like a dollars worth for a dollar to me.
The previous demos didn't seem to satisfy you so the other option is "water treament buffet" with no installation, no on-site service, a "long distance" parts only warranty, and you have to resolve whatever problems surface during installation or after and hope everything works and plays well together. You'll send money to someone you've never seen and has never seen your specific needs at your location.
Awaiting news of your decision
Art with Rayne
02-12-06, 02:37 PM
Hi Chris,
I replied as promised on the other site. Just because you might purchase a system from someone (local, online, or elsewhere) doesn't mean you'll never be able to get local service, parts (unless they are both discontinued & unavailable), etc. 70% of my of my service customers did not originally purchase equipment from us but they entrust us for the maintenance and repairs to their systems.
Art
I replied as promised on the other site. Just because you might purchase a system from someone (local, online, or elsewhere) doesn't mean you'll never be able to get local service, parts (unless they are both discontinued & unavailable), etc. 70% of my of my service customers did not originally purchase equipment from us but they entrust us for the maintenance and repairs to their systems.
Art
AndyC
02-12-06, 03:51 PM
Chris,
I see that you have received some quotes and system proposals. It seems as though you have received enough info from the sales rep but I was not clear with his exact proposal. You said you had good, better, best choices given you but you gave just one choice?
The way you described it seems like you have parallel softener systems. I didn’t really think of that for your situation but I have used them before. Pressure loss is less because since only one of four sections backwashes at a time. Each system had four tanks and has water service to all eight tanks (two sets of four) at the same time. What that offers you is a full flow system with minimum backwash. As one set is backwashing, the other three sets are still working. I have seen as many as ten sets of twin tanks in service.
The filter media is called Macrolite, which is an exclusive media manufactured by Kinetico. Since it is made of ceramic, you won’t have any problems with degradation with acids or salts. The only thing that will bother it would be petroleum. It will filter out insoluble particulates like oxidized iron down to 3 microns so it would help any UV system following it. The media is extremely light and lifts easily during backwash.
Although you said you don’t have a microbiological hinderance, you are looking at a disinfection system. It is better to be safe than sorry. A chlorine pellet or liquid injection system are effective for disinfection as is hydrogen peroxide and ozone. Each has some disadvantages. An in-line pellet dropper is the cheapest. Only UV is certified by having a real-time indicator of effectiveness.
The Hallett has a very different approach to UV disinfection. The quartz lens is self-cleaning so they can be used on hard water. But since you don’t have hard water at that point, a cylindrical type like Sterilight is very effective.
As for the RO, what you are describing is the TS 600. That unit is a real workhorse. We normally put that on for water vending machine and small commercial units. They come in smaller membrane sizes, as well. An 80 gallon tank might be a little big for your application, but the 40-gallon would be fine, That would give you about 20 gallons of water on tap.
Well Chris, I hope that I was able to help at least with information concerning your particular situation. If you have any more questions, just let us know. Someone will try to help.
I see that you have received some quotes and system proposals. It seems as though you have received enough info from the sales rep but I was not clear with his exact proposal. You said you had good, better, best choices given you but you gave just one choice?
The way you described it seems like you have parallel softener systems. I didn’t really think of that for your situation but I have used them before. Pressure loss is less because since only one of four sections backwashes at a time. Each system had four tanks and has water service to all eight tanks (two sets of four) at the same time. What that offers you is a full flow system with minimum backwash. As one set is backwashing, the other three sets are still working. I have seen as many as ten sets of twin tanks in service.
The filter media is called Macrolite, which is an exclusive media manufactured by Kinetico. Since it is made of ceramic, you won’t have any problems with degradation with acids or salts. The only thing that will bother it would be petroleum. It will filter out insoluble particulates like oxidized iron down to 3 microns so it would help any UV system following it. The media is extremely light and lifts easily during backwash.
Although you said you don’t have a microbiological hinderance, you are looking at a disinfection system. It is better to be safe than sorry. A chlorine pellet or liquid injection system are effective for disinfection as is hydrogen peroxide and ozone. Each has some disadvantages. An in-line pellet dropper is the cheapest. Only UV is certified by having a real-time indicator of effectiveness.
The Hallett has a very different approach to UV disinfection. The quartz lens is self-cleaning so they can be used on hard water. But since you don’t have hard water at that point, a cylindrical type like Sterilight is very effective.
As for the RO, what you are describing is the TS 600. That unit is a real workhorse. We normally put that on for water vending machine and small commercial units. They come in smaller membrane sizes, as well. An 80 gallon tank might be a little big for your application, but the 40-gallon would be fine, That would give you about 20 gallons of water on tap.
Well Chris, I hope that I was able to help at least with information concerning your particular situation. If you have any more questions, just let us know. Someone will try to help.
jdp38
02-13-06, 06:06 AM
Chris
I'm glad you got the demo you wanted.....THAT is the way all demos should be......one thing to look into.....as I'm sure the rep pointed out....if your ice machine is a recirculating it is not a good idea to hook the R/O up to it.....you will get just as high quality isce as with an R/O without the risk of damage to the machine or overworking the R/O:coffee:
I'm glad you got the demo you wanted.....THAT is the way all demos should be......one thing to look into.....as I'm sure the rep pointed out....if your ice machine is a recirculating it is not a good idea to hook the R/O up to it.....you will get just as high quality isce as with an R/O without the risk of damage to the machine or overworking the R/O:coffee:
ChrisJ
02-14-06, 05:29 PM
Hi everyone,
I wanted to thank you for your time and effort in helping me find a solution for my water treatment. I feel confident that I have made a good choice in not only equipment but the personnel have been extremely helpful and responsive.
I have decided to hold off on the UVs but am having them plumb it so that it can be added later. I will monitor the quality for that purpose and will act quickly to head off any problems.
I feel very good about the RO. I have seen another one installed at water vending service (bigger than mine) and the owner has been very pleased with.
The salesman and a water tech has been back to our place to take measurements and pictures. Actually, this is one of things that impressed me during the demo. The sales rep takes befores and afters of many of his jobs and I spent much time just reviewing his work.
Before they left I asked them to join me at the hotel for lunch and a quick inspection of our water treatment. Some very interesting suggestions were made and I will talk to the “boss” about some updates.
All-in-all, it feels good to believe that the persons you are dealing with understand their work and treat you decently. Now the proof is in the pudding. I will keep you updated and sound the alarm if anything goes wrong.
Again, thanks so much.
Chris
I wanted to thank you for your time and effort in helping me find a solution for my water treatment. I feel confident that I have made a good choice in not only equipment but the personnel have been extremely helpful and responsive.
I have decided to hold off on the UVs but am having them plumb it so that it can be added later. I will monitor the quality for that purpose and will act quickly to head off any problems.
I feel very good about the RO. I have seen another one installed at water vending service (bigger than mine) and the owner has been very pleased with.
The salesman and a water tech has been back to our place to take measurements and pictures. Actually, this is one of things that impressed me during the demo. The sales rep takes befores and afters of many of his jobs and I spent much time just reviewing his work.
Before they left I asked them to join me at the hotel for lunch and a quick inspection of our water treatment. Some very interesting suggestions were made and I will talk to the “boss” about some updates.
All-in-all, it feels good to believe that the persons you are dealing with understand their work and treat you decently. Now the proof is in the pudding. I will keep you updated and sound the alarm if anything goes wrong.
Again, thanks so much.
Chris