Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - Looking for a high quality RO

Hello,

I have been on a couple of forums looking for what makes a the difference between a regular RO and one of high quality. I am coverting my old farm house to a B & B and want a very good water system. I am doing as much research as possible.

I am planning on having a couple of companies come over soon and give me their product information. The RO I have right now was cheap but it has let me down. The cost of changing filters and membranes over the years has cost me the unit price over and over. And the water quality and pressure is not impressive.

I know there are alot of ROs out there and I just want something that works very well and not necessarily the cheapest. I went that route already.

I am going to have some water tests conducted and I may need a softener too....and a suldfufur system...Anyway, I wannnt to do it right.

My wife and I are retired a. We owned a hotel, she was a nurse and my son owns it now...but I still a have a word or two how it is run...;-)

I don't really want to get into company names right now. I just want to get the basics of what makes something a high quality unit versus average. We have an old softenr but the valve is leaking and looks terrible. I have 3/4" piping and a new pressure tank 54 gallon . I realize you can't give much advise without test results but I will pass those on soon. What kinds of questions should I ask the salespersons?

Thanks,
ChrisJ

I think you are doing the right thing, get some tests done.

This is my own personal opinion on RO.

I don't like them, due to it cost a lot to replace the filters, as you already said for yourself, along with the very slow recovery.

One thing I did notice, it was a big waste of water to "Make" this water! I think the water that came out of a RO system takes very blah. Worst when it got warm to room temp.. I took a few extra gallons with us camping a year ago, and every one dumped the water.. They thought they had bad water. I called the company (Will say name later) to come out and check it, they said that just the way it is. he said we are spoiled to to untreated water...... Ok???..

The unit came with the house, and 8 months later, I asked them to take it out. I brought a in line filter from Home Depot, and water tastes far better, and no need to wait for the water to be "made".

I know GE and Maytag says they do not want RO on thier ice makers, due to low water pressure, leading to poor ice cube size/making.

Most RO companies do not make ROs. They buy housings, filters, and valving components and assemble ROs.

The effectiveness of ROs is determined by the pre-filter(s), membrane, and post filter specs and what they do to the water.

There are 4 stage ROs with 1 sediment and one carbon block (for chlorine removal, the membrane really hates chlorine), the membrane (the RO part), and 1 post (or polish) filter for taste. There are 5 stage ROs that have 2 sediment and one carbon (or 1 sediment and 2 carbon) pre-filters, then the membrane, and then the final (or post or polish) filter for taste.

You want to feed your RO safe, clean, and soft (not hard) water for longest membrane life. You can get a modestly priced TDS meter and montor the TDS before and after the RO to determine optimum RO service intervals

If you want details, look up the filters and membranes that the RO uses and then hunt down the specs of that filter or membrane.

I'd want an RO that is NSF certified and uses common sized filters and membranes. That way, if new technology in filters or membranes comes out down the road I can upgrade my RO my self.

My RO feeds a sink top air gap faucet and the icemaker in our Maytag fridge. Ice cubes are full size, clear, and taste great. If you've never experieced RO water see if a neighbor has one, mooch a gaalon or so and see what you think. BTW, our Bunn coffeemaker loves RO water and makes at least 2 pots a day every day ... it's 26 years old.

If RO water waste is a concern then WattsPremier has a ZERO waste RO that's modestly priced at Costco.com.

As always, free advice is worth what you pay for it.

Thanks guys for the responses. I am convinced that is the way I want to go. We have a commecial RO at the hotel for ice machines, water dispensers and used for cooking. You don't need to sell me on RO quality of water I am just looking a the quality of the RO. I know what you say when people mention the taste of RO water. Water is a tasteless, odorless and colorless liquid and that’s the way I want it.
I know my present situation is to take care of the incoming water. The prefilter is always rusty and odors come through after a while. I am checking for sulfur too. Iwas told that sulfur if that’s what it is must be taken care of first. And hardeness must be brought down to an accepetable level of about 10 grains per gallon. My present softener is probably not doing that...at least not all the time.

I guess once someone buys something that disappoints them they want to cover all the bases but I don’t mind going with the good stuff. I have to repelace water heaters and dishwasher. The wasing machine is fairly new but already showing signs of water damage. I am tired of dealing with equipment that doesn’t have a life to it.

It is also important that you trust the people you are working with.

Thanks so much
Chris

You are right about quality in your R/O.....and yes, alot of companies buy the materials and assemble them.....then again, some don't....I would look for an R/O that has a backwash feature for the membrane....not flushing it while it's not making water, but an actual backwash with R/O water after completing tank fill, yet prior to shut down.....this extend the life of the membrane....you continue to mention sulphur.....are you sure you have sulphur, or might it be the bacterial iron in your well.....you will get the same H2S odor from the inron when it comes into contact with oxygen....if you are using a bladder tank as a pressure vessel, this happens every time you turn on your water.....water for thought! :cheshire:
Jay11J.....would have to agree with the company you had out.....I was 15 years old before I knew you weren't supposed to chew water....when you store R/O water, it will very easily absorb taste and odor from the container, which is why it is passed thru a post filter before exiting the faucet....the inline filter you purchased is a carbon filter, chlorine removal and polisher....you're not on a non chlorinated well are you?....no chlorine thru a carbon filter will breed bacteria......and yes, some 'fridge makers do advise not to connect to R/O's, however, if you adjust the pressure in the holding tank correctly, and check it as part of your routine maint. then there should be no problem.....I agree with you about the filters, the can be expensive.....BUT....I live in an area of the country where refineries and petrochemical facilities have littered the landscape since the discovery of oil....my children are worth the $100 I spend a year to replace my R/O filters.

ChrisJ

How are you? Clearly you have an intention of being particular about your water treatment and it seems to me that you want nothing but the best. You do understand that comes with a price, right? I won’t go into detail at this time on any particular model or company as you are going to be introduced to a number of differing products with you in-home water tests.

The vast majority of ROs on the market right now have very similar features. The lower the price, the simpler the features can be a general rule of thumb.

From what you said, you have a good idea what ROs are but let me assume (forgive me if I say something obvious or already understood) that we can start from the beginning. As mentioned earlier the basic sequence is cold (treated) water to a prefilter. For well water it is often a sediment filter and for municipal water, a carbon filter is used to remove the effects of chlorine primarily.

This filter(s) prepares water for the membrane, which is the hard working and expensive part of the system. The water then goes into a holding tank and when pressure is relieved at the faucet, pressure (or gravity feed) pushes water through a carbon filter before consumption.

I may use some unfamiliar terms. Please look them up or ask me for clarification. Let's focus on the membrane for now.

There two essential types of membranes: Thin Film Composite (TFC), and cellulose tri-acetate (CTA).

The CTA is fairly chlorine tolerant, TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) rejection is reduced with increase TDS, a more limited pH range and nitrate rejection, and lower temperature limit.

The TFC produces a higher quality of water (TDS rejection is more bacteria resistant, very wide pH range and higher temperatures. Most residential (low pressure system), commercial and industrial (high pressure systems) membranes are TFC. There are also tubular membranes but that’s a whole different story.
--Ask you sales rep what type of membrane they carry, why and how they are different from 'the other'.

As mentioned before, membranes are the most expensive replacement part of the RO for regular maintenance. Keeping the membrane in optimum condition is essential for cost savings let alone providing the highest quality water production.
--Ask your sales rep what features they offer to extend membrane life and what warranty they have on it? Have him be specific on limitations and options.

I tend to use lateral thinking when trying to make a conclusion. Sometimes understanding how something works is important, but so is what makes it break.

Pressure--low pressure will produce low quality. The whole secret of an RO is to ‘reverse’ the osmotic principle and this is done by adequate pressure. There are different means to enhance this aspect.

Inorganic fouling--This includes suspended solids, bicarbonate alkalinity, calcium sulfate, hydrogen sulfide, iron, manganese, colloidal material and other precipitant matter. Even for short periods of time this can affect ROs.

Organic fouling--some membranes can be cleaned with a mild acid (citric acid). Appropriate pretreatment is the best solution.

Microbiological fouling--biofilm is best prevented by treating before entering the membrane but some can be cleaned with an approved bacterialcide. Appropriate pretreatment is the best solution.

Oxidation--Chlorine, peroxide, permanganate, or ozone must be removed before entering TFC membranes.

Concentrate Polarization--This is when static water rests for periods of time without flushing/moving across the membrane. The membrane, which usually never comes into direct contact with scale building elements, is contaminated due to a constant static bath of calcium bicarbonates, etc. ROs can sit for long periods of time with un- or poorly treated water. Membranes hate calcium (hard water) but love sodium (soft water).

Drain connection--make sure the drain connection prevents microorganisms from entering through the ‘back door’. This includes gases as well as organisms.

Start-up and maintenance operations--If the RO is not properly set up and filter changes are done with unsanitary products, the ultimate quality of the RO can be jeopardized.
--Ask you sale rep to outline what would negatively affect their membranes and what prevention technics their systems or installation/maintenance procedures have.

In-home sales can be tedious, tiring and tenacious. The last thing you want to happen is to lose control and just listen and nod. Then tell the sales rep you need time to think of a reason to say NO. Essentially.

Instead ASK QUESTIONS and if they are puzzled, perplexed or give bogus responses, you have a reason to say "no" and tell them so. I would rather hear an "I-don't-know" than listen to some windbag glibly go on or change topics. If they satisfy your mindset, then chances are they have what you need.

Chris, I hope I began to answer your concerns, objectives and inquiries.

Andy

If you are happy with half-way measures, then be satisfied with mediocre results.

Thanks for the replies,

justalurker, that's the kind I have right now. The filters can be changed with just about anything that will fit. A couple of times I put a string wound type prefilter and it didn't seem to last, and then I put in a carbon filter but that I was told not to do that. It is kind of a guessing game. I know that when a company makes special filter that only theirs fit is a problem in getting them but at least they are designed to meet speciffications of the RO.

jdp38, ab a backwash membrane? I thought that was on softeners. How does an RO backwash. ? As Andy said, keeping the membrane in good shape is important and I agree with that in principle, but how?


Andy, wow, Thanks for the informative reply. That's what I wanted.....what questions to ask. At least I can ask questions just to see how they answer. There is alot there to digest and I may have to make notes. It is more complicated than I thought and definitely more than just an in-line filter. I don't look forard to the sales pitches but if i I have all my ducks in order i I can play it more my way.

It is important to understand what you want.

In this and another forum, someone mentioned other name brand types. They were Microline, Watts Premier and Kinetico. Not much information on the first two and not much good to say about the third.

I guess I am going to check up things on google.....thanks again for your help. It’s getting interesting.

Back to the game......
Chris

Hi Chris,

An RO expects safe clean water this is not hard. If your softener is malfunctioning it is no surprise that the first (sediment filter) dirties up quickly. Whether spun or molded the filter will get dirty FAST. And the first filter HAS to be a sediment filter and NOT a carbon filter. If you opened the airbox on your car's air filter then drove it across a dirt lot the air filter will get really dirty really quick. Close the airbox back up and the filter will stay clean longer.

My advice is to contact the local people you can and give them an opportunity to explain why you should buy their product. After those presentations you can formulate a list of specific questions to research on your own and also pose those questions in the forums you frequent.

You may find a local independent water treatment pro that will design and quote a complete solution for you that includes generic components with Fleck, Autotrol, or Clack and some no name componets and that's OK if they will stand behind them. Most likely, in your situation, you will get quoted comprehensive complete solutions from Kinetico or Culligan dealers. Their advantage is that they won't go anywhere, usually excel at after sale service, stock parts at their location, and work everyday with the same components so they are intimately familiar with what works and plays well together and they know your water. Kinetico manufactures it's own control valves and ROs and therefore can engineer exactly what they want and totally control the QC. I'm not sure that Culligan does but they do handle water treatment problems from single homes to large corporate installations.

One call, one place, one invoice.

Microline is made by Clack, a well respected company who has been around for many years.

http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm

It is a more expensive and well made unit with less profit margin than the no name ROs made of pacific rim parts that are being pumped into the market by water treatment distributing houses where independent no name water treatment dealers get their stuff drop-shipped to you. The appeal of these no name ROs to the seller are its lower price to the end customer and higher profit margin for the seller. Many of the no name ROs I've researched are not NSF certified and I have seen posts on the net about leaking and cracking filter housings.

Like everything else in life ... there is nothing that someone won't make cheaper with less quality if there's a market for it.

Watts as in Watts Premier has been around since 1989. They answer their phone in Arizona and speak English. Their products have been sold in Sam's club and Costco for years and these are two companies who do not tolerate second class products and act immediately on member complaints regarding poor quality products. Maybe the reason you haven't heard much about Watts Premier is that the ones in people's homes work so there is nothing to report.

The answers to some of your RO tech questions may be found here ...
http://wattspremier.com/watts/webpage.cfm?WebPage_ID=29&DID=15

If I were in your situation I'd try to find a local water treatment pro that will make a recommendation for all your water treament needs at a reasonable price who will service what they sell. That way you get a complete meal rather than stepping up to the water treatment buffet.

Wanting to start up a B&B I'd think you want soft water 24/7 and safe clean drinkable water 24/7 also. That means a twin resin tank softener. You never know when guests will take a shower or a bath at 2:00 AM ... precisely when that single resin tank softener you bought on the cheap will be set to regenerate.

I had a water test tonight and the salesman offered a Sanitizer. He said that it is a softener that produces chlorine during regeneration to clean the resin. I couldn't see the need for it and he put so much effort into recommending it that I could see no reason to get it. The RO looked typical with no special features or benefits.

The sales guy just looked at their old system and gave me an estimate. I had to ask him the test the water.

The hardness was 26, iron, 0.2ppm, TDS 523, Sulphur 0.0

Glad that no sulphur was recorded so maybe the smell is just coming from the softener.

I didn't want to go with this company and the price seemed high for what I was offered or for what I didn't want. $3945 but he tried to come down on the price and offered alternative equipment including a demand (metered) softener that looked like ours but with more electronics. Ours is timer.

I am having two more companies come over and I hope they do a better job.

I have been getting mixed messages about the kinetico RO. Another guy says they can cut out just at the wrong time and you are left without water. Of course he says they (he and another guy) are "not fans" of Kineticos and this is one reason why. What is that makes thoses systems so bad? I have read some links from his forum but that seems to be a strong (negative ) opinion.

Kinetico is coming over in a couple of days for a water test. I just wondered. I would have never even considerd them but when they mentioned it I thought I had better check them out.

Thanks,
Chris

Wow, Chris......great question......."What is that makes thoses systems so bad? I have read some links from his forum but that seems to be a strong (negative ) opinion. ".......well, the "other" guy is right, it will shut down on you when you have reached 500 gallons used.....however, there is a meter guage on top of the unit to let you know when you are getting close.....so you order the filters early and have them at home, so that when it does shut down, you spend the next 3 minutes changing them.....you say that is one reason, did they give you another?.....You will find many negative things said about Kinetico in general on these forums, but if you notice, ALOT of the posts are from the same people......I'm not here to sell equiptment, so anything that I say might be considered selling, and would be removed.......it's funny, you don't see on these forums product bashing by anyone from Kinetico......I don't know why people don't like us.....maybe it's because they can't duplicate it?.......you asked earlier about the membrane backwash.....SOME R/O's have a module that houses the membrane....around that module is a bladder that fills with R/O water.....when the unit has completed filling the tank, it backwashes the membrane with the R/O water.....exteding the life of the membrane......talk to the Kinetico guy and all the others.....ask many questions....

I figured you didn't have sulphur......do you have a bladder tank? :coffee:

jdp38

No, they didn't give me any other reasons. But I guess they mentioned them in other forums. Whatever, their reasons, I hope it is not just a sales bashing and that there are real points to consider. I went through the same thing with roofing companies..."his is no good, his won't work, his won't last"... but without any real substance. It's funny how I side with the person who does the least bashing, even if it may not be the best choice at least I am working with someone who focuses on what they can do and not what the others can't.

So that RO really does shut down at 500 gallons. There must be some kind of metering system? Not a TDS count? But if it has some kind of warning system that I can watch, then extra filters can be on-the-ready as you said. That's acceptable. I don't see a problem with that. I might get my bacterial tests back today. I hope there is no problem. If so, I may get the ozone or UV system. I know there are TDS in-line meters that can be added to make it even more accurate. Seen them on ebay.

What about DI filters after the RO?

Since I began this whole trip I have learned alot about R0s and a few things I have come to conclude. I want my drinking water to be as good as possible...within reason... and my system to last as long as possible... I want it to be the last softener I will have to buy. I have more than just myself to think about now. I found out from the county that certain health (and other) standards have to apply for my B&B but I am small enough not to have to get state certification. I guess that's good. I always believe even if you don't have to follow code, you should.

Justalurker
Thanks for your help, too. I went to those site and found the R0s to be pretty good and they have been tested and easy to maintain. Prices seem good. I thought about putting an R0 in each guest bedroom/bath. I am also considering taking one of the icemakers from the hotel and put it in our place. It is small but very useful. I can see this can be a never ending expansion if I don't be careful.

And you have a good point about guests wanting water at different times of day and night. I never thought about that.

Chris

Chris,

I hadn't thought of that, great idea. Something like a very cost effective Watts Premier RO in every guest room. They're simple and cheap to service and you could buy the filters in bulk. Actually Sam's club sell the complete filter change kit for under $30.

If the Kinetico RO has a meter that's "engineering" not bad design. Most people just change RO filters on a time schedule or monitor the water with a TDS meter (less than $50 from WattsPremier). Interesting that the "other guys" pointed out the Kinetico RO cutting off your water but not that the RO has a meter on it. How is that any worse then having a gas gauge on your car? When it gets close to "E" you get more gas or you run out. I guess a little knowledge goes a short way :).

I've said this before but I guess it get's lost in the shuffle ... everytime I see some product getting bashed on internet forums it's the people who sell against that product doing the bashing not the people who OWN the product.

Don't go with the guy who does the least bashing go with the products that will do the best job for the most reasonable cost with the most reliable service after the sale. When selling inferior products against superior ones limited tactics are available and the most common ones used are bashing or "mine costs less and their's is too expensive".

Chris,

Below are two sites that describe the Sanitizer. The first is a product manual and the second manufacturer’s info.

http://www.r-can.com/AWPsofteners/pdf-files/520082-Sanitizer-E.pdf
http://www.water-right.com/crystal_right/crystal_right.html

That should answer most of your questions, concerns or doubts about that equipment. I have never worked with them before and as such make no unqualified pronouncements or critiques. I do like the idea that a company is putting forth much research and innovation towards a unique product that may have specific benefits.

You have been receiving some information about the R0s made by Kinetico, I understand. Naturally, I hope that those speaking of them know what they are talking about and speak factually and objectively.

NOTE: I neither wish to express platitudes nor dogma and I make no attempt to offer for sale anything here. I just wish to describe a product, its features and benefits. I, by no means, imply other products are not what they advertise or other persons selling other products are not a good choice.

Kinetico makes three (with some variations) reverse osmosis units. They are: K-2, K-R/O+Deluxe, and the Purefecta. I won’t get into prices as that is determined by the dealer and the deal, but I listed them from least to most expensive.

Here Kinetico wanted to create a drinking water system that both has unique features and provides the user with optimum performance and quality. Kinetico believes that shortcuts should not be taken with drinking water systems and its engineering department struggles to make sure it continuously sets the bar for others to reach.

The most popular version is the K-R/O. One of its features already mentioned is the membrane flushing system which is called the “Ever Clean Rinse” system and it is patented. Every time the tank fills up, approximately 140 ml of RO water flushes the membrane and leaves it sitting in a bath of treated water until pretreated source water enters for further membrane water separation. The reservoir then refills for the next membrane flush.

With other R0s, the membrane chamber contains concentrate (dirty) water 100% of the life of the membrane. The K-R/O has treated water residing in that chamber 95+% of the life of the membrane. The only time when concentrate water occupies that space is when water is moving in a laminar manner across the membrane. When it's done, the 'dirty water' is flushed out with clean, clear membrane treated water.

This feature was adopted by Kinetico engineers from their industrial RO membrane technology into a residential application.

The Ever Clean Rinse system dramatically reduces the chances of organic-, inorganic-, microbiological-fouling and concentrate polarization mentioned earlier as some of the primary reasons of how and why membranes fail to provide the quality---and safe water that membane technology is capable of producing.

Other R0s can have manual flush systems set up if you don’t mind flipping and holding it at the time. Some can be retro fitted and I think it would be a good idea if you can locate one.

Keeping the membrane in optimum condition is THE one most important feature to assure the user that quality water is being produced. Kinetico membranes are rated at 75 gpd but under normal household water pressure and tempature they produce around 35 gpd.

The K-RO is mechanically metered to provide a system to alert the owner when to change filters. The final carbon filter is called MACGUARD Filter. MAC stands for Metered Automatic Cartridge. Another patented feature that counts the number of gallons that actually goes through MACGUARD. When it reaches 500, the system shuts down. Simply replace the MAC and the 500 gallon meter automatically resets itself.

A gear-activated ‘thermometer-like” gauge indicates at what level the filter life remains. Owners can easily monitor it. A faucet is also offered to measure water quality with luminous changing indicators. I suppose bells and whistles are in the works. ;-}

Marking a calendar for filter change is a inferior way to judge the life of the filters and membranes, but if that's the best you can do, then check off the dates you feel your filters need to be changed. It is little more than a guessing game and really, most people are lackadaisical in filter changing procedures and schedules. Kinetico takes the extra steps to assure the user that the water provided for consumption is the best it can be by eliminating the guesswork.

Filter changes need no tools or special procedures. All filters elements are vacuum sealed in their housings until needed. Kinetico used to have standard filter housings but realized many filters were being substituted by generic and lower quality filters thus lowering the quality of the water produced. So now they are proprietary. And yes, you can only get them from a Kinetico outlet. That’s approximately $50 for every five-hundred gallons.

Moreover, the tank is, yes-you guessed it, unique and exclusive. It is called the QuickFlo Tank. There are four hoses leading to the tank. Five in some cases. Standard R0s have only one.

All other residential reverse osmosis retention tanks (that I know of) are pneumatically controlled, save Kinetico’s. That is, an air bladder with a static air charge (7-11 lbs) occupies up to 60% of the volume of the tank when filled with water. When pressure is release by activating a faucet or ice maker, the bladder expands pushing water to its destination. So a “three-gallon” tank may hold only 1.5 gallons of down flow water.

As the bladder expands, the pressure of the water at the faucet decreases exponentially until little more than a dribble comes out. It is no wonder fridge makers discourage R0s feeding their ice makers. With up to 50 feet of .25” line for cooling, fridge lines work too hard with a standard RO tank and has a very difficult time supplying water with ample pressure---or volume.

The QuickFlo Tank use hydraulic pressure. Kinetico removed the air bladder so that 2.7 gallons of down flow is provided from a three-gallon tank. The associated features provide additional benefits. This too is patented. A one-gallon tank is also available.

Let’s start with a full tank. The faucet valve opens and water flows out-- and briefly hesitates before resuming full pressure flow. That hesitation indicates a sensor was activated in the tank head opening a valve and letting strong household water pressure to enter the tank separated from the permeate water. This high water pressure then empties the tank until valve is shut or tank is empty. There is no decrease of pressure during water service. And you get nearly double the amount of water.

When the tanks fills up, Ever Clean Rinse washes down the membrane and lets it sit in a clean, sanitary environment. In fact, the tank refills after nearly every couple glasses of water; you don’t have to empty the tank to refill. Your membrane can clean itself a couple dozen times a day. I don’t know the exact amount of water used before reill, but it makes the membrane work more often and cleans it frequently; two important and positive aspects that lead to longer and more efficient membrane life.

Granted there is some water use here, but weighing the differences, I prefer having a clean membrane. You can actually hear it pulsating --fhut fhut fhut fhut.

Kinetico offers a full seven-year warranty on its membrane (and parts except prefilter and carbon filter) for this unit providing it follows a 7/24 twin-tank Kinetico softener and a four-year warranty following another type of softener, which is still longer than most all other RO warranties regardless of their pretreatment. Many companies offer no warranty on membranes at all!

Still further, there is no air bladder back-pressure when the membrane is refilling the tank with permeate water. This allows the tank to fill quickly and with added water pressure and flow rate across the membrane, it produces quickly water more and again benefits the shelf-life of the membrane.

There are beautiful, tall, designer faucets in twelve matching colors/materials.

I tried to keep it brief but with so many features and benefits it's hard to describe it as just, you know, "one of those expensive kind that does the same as every other one..."

Now mind you, the K-R/O is Kinetico’s “middle-of-the-road” reverse osmosis!

The Purefecta is an incredible system that absolutely stands head and shoulders above anything out there in terms of quality and safety. (That’s my opinion, of course, but more than willing to go into detail) In fact, NSF created a whole new category (P-231) for it and the Purefecta (Kinetico in union with the PALL Corporation) shares that status with no other system. It’s bacteria and virus filters have passed tests exceeding 2000 gallons. But that is for another day.

I hope I was able to shed a little light on the benefits, unique features and quality of the technology and application of a well-engineered and time-tested system. Make no mistake, you won’t find these on the discount counter in a big box store or in a bargain basement internet web site.

Quality never comes without first challenging the minds of those who design them and appreciated by customers who understand and prefer the best.

Thanks for your patience.
Andy

:wall: because it's not letting me post!

Hi Chris,

I'll try this again.....I posted on another forum regarding a water softener. I got some of the same guys here, plus a few others. The others were like you said, Kinetico bashers. They won't tell why they don't like the Kinetico's. They say they have the same thing. Then they contradict themselves by saying that only a Kinetico dealer can service a Kinetico! I am like you as in that I wanted somebody local and somebody I can trust. The others didn't feel I could trust my local Kinetico dealer....although I've known them for over 30 yrs! And they don't even know them?

Ask these guys your questions, they will answer them all and then some. Stick with these guys and you can't go wrong! :thumbup:

Hi Terry, nice to see ya ... :)

Hi justa! Well hmmm....I have to make my post l o n g e r.....wonder if this is enough???? :p

Hey Terry

Glad to see you've not been scared off.....funny thing, I went to "the other guys" forum to see all the terrible things he has to say about me, yet he won't let me on to defend myself......... :cheshire:

I went to "the other guys" forum to see all the terrible things he has to say about me, yet he won't let me on to defend myself......... :cheshire:

What do you mean ... he says it's an OPEN forum ;)

It's really easy to win an argument when you're the only one participating.

Now if we could get Pinoke over hear we could have some laughs. :D

Whoa Guys,

I tried to get on the other forum but it won’t even open up for me. The owner said earlier he thought someone was hacking into it. I hope that's not the case and why would someone do something like that? No harm done I hope.

Anyway, we had another test last night and it went it little better than the previous in that the gentleman was a little older and been in the business for a long time. He was very knowledgeable. He spent the first 20 minutes in small talk and asking questions. Actually we had met many years earlier when his son’s wedding reception was at our hotel. We both remembered each other. Nice guy.

His tests were very similar in results but he did do a PH test which was 7.3. He said there may be some turbidity as the water looked a little cloudy when pulled from before the softener. He was sure what was causing it. Our well is about 90 feet deep and the casing goes down about 40 feet.

He asked a lot of questions about the B&B and wonderd how much plumbing we were going to replace. Many faucets were corroded/scale build up, iron stain, etc. I said we are planning to replace most of it especially in the guest rooms and we are adding two bathrooms...one with jaccuzzi.

The equipment he was offering was a softener with a metered Autotroll or Fleck valve and an RO. Warranty on the softener is five years and three on the RO. The ro looks very similar to ours but it has an extra prefilter which are available locally. He will provide an extra set of filters, salt, a ten gallon steel tank, too. The ro will go to the sink, the fridge and an outlet for the commercial ice maker when we get it. All installed in the basement.

His price was much lower. For the whole thing he was asking $2445 for a 12” tank set up.

The demo lasted about two hours and Evelyn and I thought it was better...clearer and more confident... then the previous demo but said later that she was worried about having enough softwater and ro service for the B&B amd maybe consider a small commecial unit. I will call him back and present that idea to him. In fact, he spent more time just talking and making us feel comfortable and never really pressured for a sale.

Oh yea, Bacteria tests came back and they found no problems but I would still like to consider some kind of disinfection system.

Andy, thank you for the RO information. As I was listening to him last night, he didn’t go into any technical details about the RO and when I asked him about membrane life he said normally replace them every three years and filters every six months. He recommends a sanitizing procedure and that is usually a service call for most customers. Gary in the other forum wanted me to ask you about the Purfecta. Now you got me curious too. and if ALL ROs can be set up with a metering or gallon counting system. He said something about nobody mentioning a "negative" point about Kenetico but didn't say what it was. I suppose everything has some negatives, right? Nothing's perfect.

I know we are going to have to do something soon as construction will be complete next week if they are on time. New furnace going in tomorrow. Anyway, two down, one to go. I am getting enough information about parts and pieces and may save money by buying on line and installing ourselves.

Terry, is it? Do you have some experience like I am having? I mean did you come to a decision in how to handle water problems? Thanks for joining in...the more the merrier.

Thanks so much...and you guys be nice out there, OK? Everything works out in the end.
Chris

Chris,

In case you didn't know, Terry started this thread looking for some info on softeners on another forum ...

http://**********.com

It's a long thread and unfortunately got badly chopped up due to moderator deletions for personal attacks by "other" posters.

Glad the second demo went better than the first. Get as many demos as you can. The more info you have the better informed you decision can be. Ask questions like ... what is your usual response time for a service call? Can they be reached 24/7 in case of an emergency? Do they stock parts for the control valves and RO units?

I'd still want a twin resin tank softener for 24/7 soft water for a B&B

Any RO can have an in-line TDS meter installed as an accessory. You'd simply monitor the readings until they got to a certain point and then replace the filters. You can achieve the same thing with a hand held TDS meter like this ... http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/showdetl.cfm?&DID=15&Product_ID=47&CATID=1

Costs $40 and this link is a TDS calculator for using that meter ...

http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/webpage.cfm?WebPage_ID=82&DID=15

or an in-line TDS meter ...

http://www.tdsmeter.com/index.html

The way Kinetico seems to do it the meter is designed in not added as an afterthought. Since they design their own RO they can tailor the metering system to that design. Again, I'll use the gas gauge in the car analogy because gas gauges work pretty good for every car and truck on the road.

Just thinking out loud, I have a standard design RO and a TDS meter but then, I'm not running a B&B where I have to accomodate guest's needs and wants.

If you decide to buy over the internet you should invest money in spare parts and whatever special tools you might need. In the event of a water treatment problem your guests (customers) will expect a timely resolution and parts from internet sellers are always UPS or FedEx away and you have to depend on a third party drop-shipper to get them to you.

Chris,

As already mentioned, it is good to do comparison shopping. Fortunately for us in a free market society, their are choices; some good and some great and some, well, you know---outstanding! For me that already “half filled glass” can always be added to, if not---get a bigger glass. Introspection, ingenuity, innovation and investment are some of the components that create improvement.

You, or someone, asked about the Purefecta RO. Instead of going into my personal perspective, I contacted this morning David Krupinski, manager of Residential Production at Kinetico and asked him for permission to cut n-paste a draft he sent me a couple of months ago concerning multi-level barriers systems for micro-biological products intended for publication in “Water Conditioning & Purification” magazine. He responded just moments ago.

He said that was fine and emailed me the actual article that is to go in the next issue.

http://attach.re2.mail.yahoo.com/us.f519.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter/?box=Inbox&MsgId=796_37369479_294476_1357_216440_0_63650_298946_986397858&bodyPart=2&filename=&tnef=&download=1&YY=35706&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&Idx=2

I look forward to reading this in the flesh. In fact this is a fine magazine for professionals and those with a keen interest in water treatment.

The article goes mostly into detail of the differences between POE (point of entry) disinfections system using a single barrier technology and POU (point of use) systems using mulitple barrier technologies.

If you have further questions please contact him via the information at the end of the article.

Thank you,
Andy

Sorry,

I just tried opening that article and because it was an attachment from my email, it won't open. I can forward it to you if you wish. Just email me and I will send it or try to find another way to pass this information on to you.

Thanks,
Andy

jdp...me? Scared off? By him?? I think not. He has a new policy in that when you sign up, it can take up to 24 hours for him to let you in. He's so sorry for any inconvenience.....He's also got the power to ban anyone.

justa, I was thinking the same thing. Where is pinoke anyway? Probably still trying to get his string working correctly...lol...and you are correct, it is an open forum. It's open, as long you follow what he says, does as he says, buys as he says, installs as he says......etcetera ;)

Chris, we must all seem like we have some inside joke going on....if you followed the link to my post, you'd see it all. The owner of that other forum, had a few posts deleted as did speedbumb(Bob). My experience was that I feel we need a water softener. I don't have really hard water, but hard enough. Leaves a film on surfaces, hard to remove, discolores my shower curtain...I had a bag left on my door, me thinking it was something for the town, when in fact it was left by a softener salesman from about 65 miles west of me. I went ahead and scheduled an appointment....I didn't buy what he was saying (or selling), so posted a question over on the plumbing forum on GW. I knew I wanted somebody local. I knew I wanted somebody I could trust. I wanted a good system. I live in very small town (7600), so who I can buy from is very limited. On my post, Kinetico came up. I misspoke, saying a system we'd had at a previous home was a Kinetico, and I knew and trusted the owner. Which then started an avalanche of Kinetico bashing. It was really very odd. I only wanted to know what I needed to look for, what types of questions I should ask, and instead I got.....well, just go read it. The other forum owner isn't here to defend himself, so unlike him, I'll leave it alone. My decision was really easy once the guys above gave me the knowledge I needed. We're going with a Kinetico MACH 2040s (I got that right, I hope!). It boiled down to trust. The system makes sense. My previous water softener was an electric, clock type. A cabinet model I believe it's called. My new system won't use electricity, won't use even half the salt as the previous one, has a 10 yr warranty on it and the people who own it live just up the street from me. Can't get any better than that. Oh wait. The best part is that I don't have to install the dang thing! I don't have to figure out which part goes where and I don't have to learn to solder.....just me keeping my girlie girl thang going...lol....

Listen to what these jokers say and listen to what your reps are saying. Weigh it all, ask more questions if you need to, and then make a decision based on what you believe to be true. Which system you believe is the best for you and your situation. :D

BTW, I got in juz fine at that other forum. I'm not signed up....nope...ain't going there...... :wall:

Best of luck!

Terry

Well Terry, now you did it. So you're going to buy one of those Kinetico things? It's gonna get installed too? Don't you know what otherbody says about them? You got a comprehension problem or what?

So now you're gonna get just what you deserve ... 15 or 20 years of uninterrupted softwater and in the event that something goes wrong you're gonna get service too, and local service at that. What are you, nuts?

juza, I don't have a comp re hen sion problem....but I know somebody that does....:thinker:

only 15 or 20 years??? Did I mention that the service won't be nothin till after the warranty expires?? Imagine! What a rip off!! Ya think I better juz go ahead and order me one off n the internet?

Speaking of nuts.....jdp....may I have the popcorn with that extra butter back?? Pretty please with a cherry on top?? :cheshire:

Terry

Chris,

I hope we haven't lost you in the 'tennis match'. Sometimes you need a flexible neck just to watch the game. Occasionally, you just have to return when some throws you a backhand. We have seen there are times when the line judge calls a foul but how often is one actually ejected from the game(s). Of course how one handles his own racket can be all controlled by the how tight his strings are wound. It looks like the game might end in (20)40-(no)love(lost) afterall. And remember, some players need a ballboy the fetch for them.

Chris,

I hope we haven't lost you in the 'tennis match'. Sometimes you need a flexible neck just to watch the game. Occasionally, you just have to return when some throws you a backhand. We have seen there are times when the line judge calls a foul but how often is one actually ejected from the game(s). Of course how one handles his own racket can be all controlled by the how tight his strings are wound. It looks like the game might end in (20)40-(no)love(lost) afterall. And remember, some players need a ballboy the fetch for them.

YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS! THAT BALL WAS CLEARLY OUT! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR !@#$%^ MIND?

I've made the grade ... I've been banned from the otherforum ... apparently now I am not banned ... wish he'd make up his mind

Chris,

You mentioned that Evelyn wanted you to consider a “commercial” application for your water needs. She is a very sharp person as there are clear differences between residential and commercial approaches to water treatment. Working for years with commercial and residential applications, I can tell you that you would rarely follow the same parameters.

Water treatment for hospitals, restaurants, fisheries, car washes, assisted living facilities, factories, dentist offices, cottage networks, dishwashers, B&Bs, and laundry mats all have unique and differing requirements beyond just ‘making it bigger’.

Thinking laterally, one rather imagines failure over success when considering commercial (and industrial) applications from those residential. When a softener fails in a home due to, for example, not regenerating because it has over capacitated and 2AM hasn’t rolled around yet, the owner is stuck with a hard shower or streaky glasses. Not what one calls a major dilemma but more of a nuisance.

In commercial applications, what are the results in failure? Medical equipment not properly cleaned, food quality inconsistent, fish frozen in cloudy ice, unhappy drivers with sore elbows, geriatrics needing another bath or unneeded lotions for skin irritation, assembly lines shut down, oral bacterial intrusion, pissed off campers, expensive service calls to Hobart, exciting showers early, and grungy underwear.

Avoiding great financial loses, poor public relations, dangerous health consequences or damaged equipment, etc., is foremost in successfully considering water treatment for commercial applications.

Anyone involved successfully in commercial water treatment must first consider the results of water service breakdown. Period. Just to say, ‘make it bigger’ or ‘more service flow rate’ is being superficial or inexperienced and will lead to regrets for the customer (and your guests) and no referrals for the dealer.

Your customers and guests will be making demands on water in your home that will go far beyond what your family would normally use in volume and time of day. Unless you restrict their water use at check-in time, you may incur their wrath when you are serving up their eggs benedict. All B&Bs depend heavily on return customers and referrals. Your wonderful service, facilities and personalities will be your most effective advertising.

Expect romantic guests to use water not only during the day but also in the small hours of the night...lovers love to love in a lovely places, and sometimes those places are wet. But, what do I know? Go ahead, just make it bigger.

Andy

Well the gangs all here! I don't normally follow the water treatment forums, but kind of got interested when I had some questions about my Kinetico softener. Terry I think you will be happy with your choice; my system is working perfectly. Chris, I have an eighteen year old kinetico K60 softener and a GE smartwater RO system. The RO system is connected to my sink and my ice maker / cold water system on my refridgerator. No problems whatsoever with ice supply, or cold water supply. Thanks to some advice from Andy C. I had my Kinetico valve rebuilt, and changed the resin in my tanks last month. My original question on this forum was concerning rebuilding the Kinetico, or changing to another system. After doing quite a bit of research I stayed with Kinetico. It's hard to argue with 18 years of service with no maintenance. I wish I hadn't replaced my RO system with another GE last year. My next RO will be one of the Kinetico systems. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. I am not in the water treatment business and have been a member of DIY forums for many years.

Chris.

I hope your demo went well tonight. I am interested in the results of the tests and please let us know if you have any questions. I will try to address them directly and to the point. Few things are more frustrating than not having responsible answers to pertinent questions.

I hope those that asked for the email attachment concerning the Purefecta got it OK. And I sent some to others as well. As you read it, I think you can see the importance of testing and certification. Today's water conditions are becoming a primary concern and treatment should be followed with a professional and competent solution.

You have made you objectives clear and although your needs are not unusual, they are, nonetheless, important. I hope that everyone on this forum has been able to lend you the assistance necessary to come to an informed decision and not wasted your time.

Look forward to hearing from you soon.

beebow, hey how's it going there? Glad your water is working for you and not "on you". I hope the next twenty years proves itself even more economical. It's a nice feeling that everytime you turn on your water, you are satisfied with your decision to have soft, conditioned water.

Andy

Well I am so sorry! The concensus seems to be that I do indeed have a comprehesion problem. I juz don't wanna understand. I'm part of a mob mentality. I'm not angry at anyone. If I hurt anybody's feelings (which I seriously doubt), I apologize.

Chris, When my post over at GW was first posted, I wanted info regarding an AquaTiva softener. Was it good. Was it worth the money...$5498, etc. Andy took the time and explained to me what I asked. He sometimes talked over my head. When I would ask for clarification, he gave it. It didn't start off as a Kinetico discussion but turned into one. When somebody else talked over my head or asked me questions, I would ask for clarification and also answer any questions asked of me. Sometimes I received no response back for clarification. Many posts were 2 people arguing with statements made regarding a Kinetico. I believe most statements were clarified (but then again, it was over my head). That never seemed to be enough. It's all hype is what I kept hearing. Kinetico salesmen are only trying to sell me something. A Kinetico. But they weren't. Andy answered any question I had about another softener. There were a few people who answered my questions and helped me to understand what I needed to understand. I didn't want somebody to sell me a unit over the internet, I only wanted information. And when I was not receptive to purchasing one over the internet, or learning how to solder, it just went from bad to worse. I still read how the Kinetico guys are only trying to sell you a Kinetico. Kinetico doesn't sell over the internet. But that other guy does. He doesn't want you to believe any salesman that comes to your home, yet he wants you to believe anything he says. He's a salesman. For non brand softeners. His are better. Why? I have no clue. I never got a straight answer for that. It's cheaper because it's a nonbrand. I really don't like people assuming how much I am paying for my softener. I never said. It is not $2000+. It's less then that. I will not get charged for a service call. In fact, my Kinetico dealer delivers the salt. Either on demand or at a previously set up time. They check and make sure everything is working properly. They don't charge me extra. Is it built in to the ultimate price I pay? Probably. Does it matter to me that Lee sold his business to his daughter Lisa? No. Why should it? I trust Lee and Lisa. That's why I'm buying from them. It can't get any more simple then that. He cannot talk about that which he does not know. He is not here in my little town or yours. He isn't even here in my state or yours. How can he claim all that he does when he doesn't know them, doesn't know me....he can't. He keeps assuming. My uncle taught me long ago what happens when you assume.

These guys here aren't here to sell you anything. They don't make a commision off a sale here. They're not in your area. They are here to answer any question you have. Be it a Kinetico, a Culligan or many of the other various softeners around. justalurker, jdp, Andy...none of them have their own website with their own forum where they declare themselves king. You will not find them making assumptions or speaking badly of you because you don't buy a Kinetico. Frankly, I don't think they give a rats behind what you buy. They are here to answer your questions. Not just on a Kinetico. They're here to give you answers to your questions. I am only here to pass on my knowledge and helpfullness of the people posting here. When others got snarky with them on my post, they answered in a very diplomatic way. jdp got a little annoyed with them, but not after he and his words were attacked first. They wouldn't believe what Andy or jdp said, because to them, they were only answering my questions to sell me a Kinetico. One of the others wouldn't believe my plumber only charges me $25 per hour. I see he does seem to believe me now. beebow is here to share his experience. Yes, it's with a Kinetico, but it doesn't really matter does it? The decision is yours as to which softener or RO to buy. That decision belongs to no one else.

It was important to me when I posted my question on GW, that the people would answer any question I had in simple english I could understand and not insist on my knowledge of gpg, SFR and resin manufacturer's SFR per cuft and leakage and who knows what all else. And that people were genuinely interested in my understanding of the basics that I needed to know. I expected it to be a civil conversation. A polite conversation. I didn't expect to read how foolish I was for not wanting to learn how to solder, how I spent my money...foolish for trusting people. You don't have to use the word foolish for somebody reading it to interpret it in that manner.

I know you're getting information here and at the other forum. They are different opinions. Just like me, you take what you believe to be true and discard the rest. I can't add any more than that.

Terry

Terry I hope you had a nice cold Pepsi after that post!;) It's nice to know that there are good people out there to help us when we have a question or a problem. I've met many of them in the DIY forums. I have also been able to help out some other members along the way and it just gives you a good feeling knowing that you were able to make their life a little easier.
Take Care,
Beebow

beebow...I was just a tad long winded now, wasn't I?? Who knew I could have a post acutally longer than Andy?? And yes, actually I was drinking a pepsi as I wrote ;) I couldn't agree more.....good people out there to help us when we have a question or a problem.

And now back to your regularly scheduled program.....:o

I see that posts and opinions expressed on this forum are being replied to elsewhere so if half duplex communication is what they want, since this IS an open forum, here is where I'll reply.

In my posts on various forums and in private emails I have always prefaced my advice and personal experience as exactly that. Not a sermon from the mount and not the one and only answer to any question posed. Just what I've learned and what I know firsthand.

As far as water treatment goes, I am not in the business. I am a consumer who has had the privilage(?) of experiencing the worst that industry has to offer. Originally I bought a softener from a local dealer who promised to service what he sold me. Long story short, he lied. His technical knowledge was lacking and his response time was often over a week. So, in self defense, I began to seek out the technical knowledge myself and learn what the dealer should have known. Guess what, there's no rocket science ... only chemistry and the simplest of mechanics required. During that process I discovered that the manufacturer of my water softener was not interested in the least that his product was being represented by an incompetent liar and showed even less interest in providing any support to owners of his water softeners. After 10 years enough was enough.

Doing my research on the net I came across an idividual who frequented every water treament and plumbing forum I visited. He always had an answer. Seemed like an OK guy but then I realized why everywhere you go there he is ... he was "keyboarding for dollars". In most of his posts there was always a backdoor invitation to buy something from him. He was cute with his "just Google Clack WS1" or "search for "SFR" or "sizing a water softener". It was interesting watching him do that on other people's forums and sooner or later he was called on it or he was banned on many forums for doing it.

Unfortunately every water treatment pro I contacted locally was stuck in the 70's as far as water treatment or they were gouging their customers charging 3 to 4 times as much as the street price for what they offered (a common practice it seems), and the one branded softener I was interested in, I'll call it the "K" brand, the dealer had a less than stellar reputation. I decided that I wanted out from under my current softener and dealer so I called the softener huckster and bought one from him. It arrived in many parts. The resin tank was not the color I ordered and the tank cover was defective. The seller refused to exchange the resin tank for the color I ordered because "the distributer would't pay the shipping costs". He did agree, after some discussion to replace the tank cover and the replacement was so poorly packed that when it arrived the UPS driver recommended not accepting delivery so I refused it. The third time was the charm and the seller had upgraded the replacment tank cover from a piece of junk to a proper cover (at his expense) that survived the trip. So instead of a neutral almond color resin tank I have a bright dayglo blue one that was not what I ordered but at least now it's covered.

The softener I bought is competent and works properly. It is not set up as the seller recommended and we have butted heads over that repeatedly. I like the idea of using potassium chloride and the seller likes sodium chloride. Oh well, I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks and sometimes you can't teach a dog any tricks at all. Regardless, my softener works despite the seller not because of him and potassium chloride is good stuff.

As time went by I posted my experiences on numerous forums and on the seller's forum. Not edicts mind you, just my experiences. On the seller's forum I was beaten up and ridiculed repeatedly by the seller. After he posted a private email I had sent him with my private email address on his forum I called him and asked him to remove my private email from his forum and he refused. So I deleted MY CONTENT and left. As I visited other forums I responded to questions with my specific experiences. Nothing more and nothing less.

Yes, I bought a water softener from G@ry and I made a mistake. The softener is adequate ... G@ry is not. Would I buy from him again?

I recommend, to people asking, that they check around locally and ask their neighbors what they are doing for water treatment. To get local companies to come in and make recommendations and to do their homework on the internet. I tell them that if they find a local pro that they trust whose prices are competetive that they should consider doing business with them because service after the sale is the best value add to a water softener not the absolute cheapest price. I point out that after sale service from any internet seller is by definition non-existent and that parts from any internet seller are always UPS or FedEx away and that the (specific) seller (of whom I speak) has no parts in his hands to ship and must rely on their third party drop-shipper to get the part to the customer. Many internet sellers are real businesses with locations and inventories who stock parts for what they sell and should not be confused with interent sellers sitting at the kitchen table forwarding email orders to third party drop-shippers who don't know or care about the customer. I remind them that while "anyone can learn to solder" many don't want to and that in many locations water softeners have to be installed by a licensed plumber and permitted. To encourage otherwise in those locations is conspiring to break the law.

Customers should be forewarned and forearmed when buying anything in today's markets. Especially an expensive item like water treatment hardware which can effect their health. They need to be aware of what value is added by a local dealer and what they don't get from any internet seller let alone the rude treatment, bullying, and verbal abuse they'll enjoy from one internet seller. That one internet seller uses his forum to insult, belittle and degrade innocent people just asking questions knowing that they won't reply on his forum. It's really easy to win arguments when you're the only one in the conversation and what a grown-up way to treat people.

I have posted and emailed exactly what my experience has been with my original dealer and the subsequent internet seller. I am not attemting to sway people from buying on the internet as long as they understand what they are getting and what they are not going to get. I will continue to state exactly what my experience has been with a specific internet seller and if I can steer people to a kindler gentler internet seller I will and have already done so MANY, MANY, MANY times. There are good internet sellers advertising on the DIY forums. If that specific internet seller doesn't like the story getting out then that's too bad because it is the truth ... not the truth according to G@ry but the real simple plain truth.

Oh, and to Artwithrayne, the gas gauge analogy is more correct, than the oil change analogy you offer, as gas is the consumable being expended and metered in a car just as RO water is the consumable being expended and metered in the Kinetico RO.

As always, free advice is worth what you pay for it

justalurker,

Let's be real. Both of us comparing an RO to a car or any other appliance is not "apples to apples." I'm curious about what city in the US one is limited to using a licensed plumber to install a water softener? My understanding is any homeowner can contract a job themselves as long as they can do it properly whether it is a window, roof, carpet, electrical outlet, or water softener and they pull out any necessary permits (and pass final inspection) as required by local code. Of course, I live and work here in California and can state with fact on that assessment for this sate. I will stand corrected and bow to your ever impressive mountain of unbaised information if you can identify what city (or cities) this applies to.

Chris,

Do you have the information on your water, plumbing requirements, and peak demand water usage (both soft water and ro water needs) yet? Without it, no one can give you a proper recommendation.

Art

justalurker,

I'm curious about what city in the US one is limited to using a licensed plumber to install a water softener? My understanding is any homeowner can contract a job themselves as long as they can do it properly whether it is a window, roof, carpet, electrical outlet, or water softener and they pull out any necessary permits (and pass final inspection) as required by local code. Of course, I live and work here in California and can state with fact on that assessment for this sate.

Art, You are correct. Where I live a homeowner can do the install after taking a minimal written test, pulling a permit, and passing inspection.

I will stand corrected and bow to your ever impressive mountain of unbaised information if you can identify what city (or cities) this applies to.

Please, spare me your sarcasm, I'm sorry you live in California.

Terry,

When did I day only a Kinetico dealer can service a Kinetico? I service Kinetico systems out here. The Kinetico sub contractor is the only person you can get a replacement part from here in the Central Valley and will not sell a replacment part to any non-Kinetico dealer or contractor.

Andy,

I'm sure you're aware that the Kinetico sales dealer has nothing directly to do with service here in the Central Valley outside of subbing the work out. They do good work and they are ok guys.

The Kinetico system has the plus of 24 hours of soft water like the Fleck 9000 and 9100 and the minus of diminished service flow rate during regeneration compared to electrical systems.

Chris,

We're all in the business to market our products and give you the knowledge for an informed decision. Ultimately, the decision is yours based on your needs and what solution is most believed by you, not any of us. Good luck.

Art

justalurker,

You've gained respect from me for your quick, honest reply. I'm happy where I live and it sounds like you enjoy your surroundings, too.

Art

Following from G@ry:

His site:

BTW I don't sell either over the internet or on my web site.

I've only been selling over the internet since late 2002 but recall that I started posting 5 years earlier!

From another post:

Terry, Kinetico, Culligan, Ecowater, Rainsoft on'n on etc. dealers, sell the same equipment I do when people won't pay the premium price for name brand equipment.

The last few years I have been selling over the internet.

And yes, I sell a lot of equipment over the internet because of my posts.

My internet sales are to DIYers that if there is a problem, they want to do the fixin' themselves as opposed to have me or someone else show up to do it; with the customary service call charge and then to take an hour +/- on site.


And most all national brand softener companies use cutesie names for the minerals used so the customer has to use their dealer for service of the equipment. If that sounds good to you, buy from a national brand dealer; if not then buy over the internet or from a local independent dealer.

jdp wrote:

Terry asked a simple question and, as always, you decide to turn it into a Kinetico bash forum......how many times have you claimed the technoligy used by Kinetico is centuries old?.....If that's your sales pitch, I don't blame you for sticking to Internet sales so you don't have to look your customers in the eye!!!


G@ry again:

You guys that go on about internet sales make me laugh. It's as if you expect to be able to put the internet genie back in the bottle.
Yes terryr I'm a salesman too.

<I>You do realize that if you need service on your Kinetico, you can only (supposedly by contract) get it and parts from your (one) local dealer.</I>

That doesn't mean all know what they are doing or do it right, and I know of one or two that don't, but the vast majority of us selling over the internet aren't the dummies some local dealers portray us to be.


speedbump says:

<I>They are not only proprietary, but you will not get anyone but a Kinetico dealer to work on them. Not true with the Fleck, Clack and Autotrol heads all over the country.</I>


Then G@ry says:

And today, if not for the internet, I still would be along with my well pump sales and service hat.

Then <B><I>Art</I></B> says:

We routinely replace Kinetico valve heads with more efficient Fleck 9000 valves and save those customers several hundred dollars.

Then Art <B><I>asks</I></B>:

Terry - can you verify the size of the galvanized main line for your home?

I didn't receive an answer after posting the size of my pipes, so then I said:

Without putting all the others down, why can't you just tell me in english I can understand why what you sell is better? That goes for Gary and Bob also. I never expected this to become a Kinetico bash post. I just wanted to know what I need and why.

Did I miss anything??

I forgot:

I <I><B>already</B></I> said this:

I know you're getting information here and at the other forum. They are different opinions. Just like me, you take what you believe to be true and discard the rest. I can't add any more than that.

<I><B>Then</I></B> Art says this:

Ultimately, the decision is yours based on your needs and what solution is most believed by you, not any of us.


:wall:

Terry,

Why are you cracking your skull on the wall? I thought you had your decision made up and Lisa's guys install your system already.

Art

Art,

I'm so sorry. Did you or did you not ask me a question? Did I or did I not answer them? I'm bashing my head against a wall because, well frankly, that's what I <I>feel</I> like doing. Can I not bash my head when I <I>feel</I> like it?

<I><B>Love</B></I> to you and <I><B>yours</B></I>,

Terry

Terry,

I did ask you a question...it had a typo but I figured you'd still be able to answer it..."When did I say only a Kinetico dealer could service a Kinetico system?" That was the one that went unanswered. Did you get Lisa's system or not?

XOXOXO,
Art

MODERATOR NOTE: This post is going on tangents. 43 posts/replies so far. Original poster (Chris) has not been here since the 9th. What is going on now should be in Chats and Whines. It is no longer concerning the original question. Post is closed.