Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - Ventless Heaters

What are the experts thoughts on a ventless propane heater for a finished basement? I was always somewhat skeptical of these heaters back when, but now that they have been around for some time, is this a safe alternative?

Thanks!

A ventless heater is a ventless heater.. They have not changed at all.. Maybe an added sensor to shut it down, but by the time that shuts down, the oxgen is usely used up by then.

Stay away from them.. Too many problems caused by these units. Go either a vented one or electric ones.

Ventless heater has been banned in some area.

What are the experts thoughts on a ventless propane heater for a finished basement?
Modern heaters are made with Oxygen Depletion Sensor pilots.
The heater shuts off if the O2 drops below ~19%. Still livable for humans.

I think they are great. But you do have an open flame in the room.

The moisture stays inside. That can be an advantage, though.
It is moist heat which feels warmer and can somewhat offset the dryness from forced air heat.
You must have ample air volume and outside air exchange, though we're talking about 50 cubic feet per hour or something very small which you should have anyway. If the basement is also open to the upstairs, that is better.
The heaters are 99.9% efficient which is a big plus.

Heaters cannot be used in confined areas or with single pane glass windows.

Automatic thermostats are the best. Manual settings require attention to regulate temperature if the heater is the sole heat source.

Major plus (also shared by most vented heaters):
No electricity is required. Downed electric wires do not leave your house to freeze. 30,000 BTU/h from a ventless heater in the basement is invaluable if a winter storm knocks out your electricity for three days.

With LP it is your choice as to how many days' fuel storage you have on the premises. Make sure your outdoor tanks are protected from falling trees.

CHECK YOUR LOCAL CODE!

As i said earlier, lot of city/state bans these units due to death from CO these units puts off. Most of Canada has outlawed them. Most Canadians don't need to be told why. They have enough moisture problems in the interstitial spaces in their homes without these things. Then you have the issue of CO, NOx, odors, etc. The worst part is the order.. If you have air freshner, or other things in the home that add sents, or cleaning/soap fume in the air will burn, and will cause a off order.

I recall one time a friend brought a house that had a VF, he ran it, oh man it left a sent from by products in the home, he took it out the next day. he did not want to risk his family on this.

VF are listed and intended for supplemental heat only. Tis is one of the biggest knocks against them is the misuse.

Most VF now have yellow tipped flames and some even have embers. Kinda scary.

I agree entirely with Jay & would go further to say where they are not outlawed, they should be.

Modern heaters are made with Oxygen Depletion Sensor pilots.
The heater shuts off if the O2 drops below ~19%. Still livable for humans.

Even though a 19% oxygen level is still "livable", the 2% that was burnt up in combustion is replaced with carbon monoxide! Not an ideal situation!

Ventless heaters are bad news. Sucks oxygen out of the air and pumps carbon monoxide in. They also can cause excessive moisture in the air.


I would stay away from them.

Even though a 19% oxygen level is still "livable", the 2% that was burnt up in combustion is replaced with carbon monoxide! Not an ideal situation!

Do you have any facts to back up your claim?
That is just a ridiculous statement.

Fact: A properly operating unvented heater produces less concentration of CO than a cigarette or what you get riding in a car.



Question: WHAT IS Carbon Monoxide and what does it do?

Answer: Carbon Monoxide (CO) usually results from poor combustion, which can be caused by faulty burners, a blocked / inadequate flue or insufficient oxygen for complete combustion.

CO is both odourless and tasteless but is extremely toxic. When inhaled CO is absorbed by the red blood cells in the lungs instead of oxygen.

High concentrations of CO cause, almost immediate, damage to the heart and brain, which will both be starved of oxygen as a consequence.

Persons exposed to high concentrations of CO will quickly become unconscious and death is likely to follow within minutes.
Exposure to small concentrations of CO can cause flue like symptoms, headaches, drowsiness, and nausea.

Gas fires fitted with an ODS will be made safe long before any of the above described conditions can become dangerous.

Regular servicing of gas appliances and checking of flues is essential for continued safe use. If the area around the appliance becomes discoloured or blackened the appliance should not be used until it has been checked by a competent person.
http://www.focalpointfires.plc.uk/ods/

A hot, infrared, unvented natural gas heater makes less CO than an oven or stove which also vent into the house. Do you worry about cooking or baking with gas? CO results from incomplete combustion. An infrared heater gets fairly complete combustion.

Here is how it works:

CH4 + 2O2 => CO2 + 2H2O + heat

That's the science behind burning methane.
The result is carbon dioxide and water - the same as what people make.
Have you ever been in a stuffy crowded room?
Same things: heat, water, and carbon dioxide.

Ventless heaters are bad news.
Sucks oxygen out of the air and pumps carbon monoxide in.

That is a false, unsubstantiated claim.



They also can cause excessive moisture in the air.
Sure, they can if that is all you use to heat the whole house.
Otherwise, they add valuable humidity to the air.



I would stay away from them.
Please do.

A hot, infrared, unvented natural gas heater makes less CO than an oven or stove which also vent into the house. Do you worry about cooking or baking with gas? CO results from incomplete combustion. An infrared heater gets fairly complete combustion.

The difference is, oven or stove isn't (supposed to be) used as a heating appliance. An oven and stove is physically turned on and off when you use it. A heater is thermostatically controlled.

Furthermore, as CO does result from incomplete combustion, it is also produced even when there is complete combustion. It may not be as I presented % oxygen replaced by the same % of carbon monoxide, BUT it is still given off.

In my experience, I've seen people get sick (mild headaches) by low level CO exposure by properly working, ventless heaters. When the heaters are turned off, the headaches stop. Granted, the cases are few, but there.

If they are so safe as claimed, why do some states ban them outright? Why do other states have such tight stipulations on their use, you might as well not buy them?

A ventless heater is a ventless heater.. They have not changed at all. Maybe an added sensor to shut it down, but by the time that shuts down, the oxgen is usely used up by then.

On what basis do you deny that the oxygen depletion sensors work?



Stay away from them.. Too many problems caused by these units.
Are you talking about kerosene or electric units?


Go either a vented one or electric ones.
What is the benefit of electric?
See electric heaters recalled (http://kdka.com/recalls/recalls_story_027072743.html).

The difference is, oven or stove isn't (supposed to be) used as a heating appliance.
But (1) its exhaust goes straight into the house, (2) people do use them for heat, and (3) there is no warning not use your stove 24 hours a day.




An oven and stove is physically turned on and off when you use it.
Have you ever canned or boiled maple sap?
The stove could be on all day or for days.


A heater is thermostatically controlled.
So is an oven.



Furthermore, as CO does result from incomplete combustion, it is also produced even when there is complete combustion.
False. By definition complete combustion mean no CO.
Let's stick to scientific terminology here.



It may not be as I presented % oxygen replaced by the same % of carbon monoxide, BUT it is still given off.
Do you have any objective, verifiable evidence to support your claim?



In my experience, I've seen people get sick (mild headaches) by low level CO exposure by properly working, ventless heaters. When the heaters are turned off, the headaches stop. Granted, the cases are few, but there.
Do you have any scientifically controlled studies published in a peer-reviewed journal?

I have yet to see a CO detector that could detect any CO within 12 inches of a properly maintained, natural gas ventless heater, even an old cast iron job.



If they are so safe as claimed, why do some states ban them outright? Why do other states have such tight stipulations on their use, you might as well not buy them?
Hysteria, misinformation, ignorance, and inability to keep consumers from misinstalling them, abusing them, and throwing paper and wood into them.

They are not banned because they give off CO.



My point is that an oven makes far more CO than a ventless heater (and that is still close to nothing).

So if a ventless heater makes someone sick, then using the oven should be worse.

I don't have the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if a self-cleaning *electric* oven makes as much CO as a clean ventless methane heater.
Where are self-cleaning ovens banned?