Solid Hardwood, Engineered and Laminate Flooring - Condensation under laminate???

Six months ago I installed an Armstrong laminate floor in my kitchen and utility room. These rooms are over a crawl space. I followed all manufacturers recommendations for installation. I used their moisture barrier, overlapped and taped. The glueless laminate was glued since it was in water-prone areas, as recommended. I also filled the ¼?wall gaps with silicone caulk.
A month ago, I noticed a couple of places where the joints had raised. Last week, I walked into my utility room and heard a squishing noise in the floor. I called the manufacturer and was assured that using the moisture barrier was correct. They had me contact the retailer. The retailer then called the local rep for Armstrong who came out that day. He was insistent that I has a plumbing leak SOMEWHERE. I had already searched all of my appliances, plumbing, drains and crawl space and could not locate any type of moisture. He and I searched some more. The following day he returned with a rep from the retailer. They both had moisture meters, and after 2 ½ hours of more searching, none of us could find a problem. He still insisted that I had a leak SOMEWHERE. I had taken photos of my water meter over an 11 hour period which showed no movement. I then paid a licensed plumber to come in and search. He found no problems.
I resorted yesterday to pulling up the entire floor. I found that in approximately 60% of the floor had moisture on TOP of the barrier, and about 95% had moisture UNDER the barrier.
In the winter, I keep the humidity of my home around 30-40%. My crawl space is bone dry and ventilated, but has no moisture barrier on top of the soil.
Has anyone ever seen a case like this? I am now drying out the floor with fans and a de-humidifier, and plan to lay the plastic back down, put the appliances back, lay down a few planks of laminate and see what happens. The source of moisture has to return somehow.
If my installation was correct, who is to blame, here?

Yes, quite common when humidity levels are just right to pop a dew point. The temperature under the flooring just happen to be below dew point.

It may only be for an hour or two, but then the moisture is there and it ruins the laminate.

It is a tuff one to explain, because when the inspectors show up, the humidity and dew points have changed, and the only moisture seen is sitting on top of the moisture barrier.


Think of a cold glass of water. Your crawl space is the water. The moisture barrier is the glass and the interior of your home is the hotter atmosphere.
What happens to the outside of a cold glass of water, when it sits out in the heat?

Perry,

Thanks for the quick response. So, what did I do wrong? Should the barrier NOT have been put in?

Randy

What is the distance from the ground to the bottom of the joists 18" is the minimum allowable?

How did you cover the ground in the crawl space with a moisture barrier.


What takes some science is, the outside air can be 80º with sun shining and a humidity of 70%.

Take that air, and crawl spaces are known to be much cooler, take that air with that moisture in it and cool it off, and you can have a humidity in the crwal space around 90-100%. Then if the ground is not covered with a moisture barrier, that fuels the humidity even more!

The distance from the bottom of the joists to the ground is 22" in my crawl space. There is not a moisture barrier on the ground.

This has been a mild and dry Kansas winter with temps in the daytime 40-60 and nights 15-40. My crawl space is completely dry.

My house was built in 1955. It has oak stripflooring throughout. The kitchen and utility room in question have strip flooring, then 1/4" underlayment, then vinyl. On top of this, I put the 6 mil barrier and then the laminate.

I had never experienced any kind of humidity problem in the 23 years I've lived in this house.

Thanks again,
Randy

I'm not a pro when it comes to flooring, but if you are seeing condensate on the top AND bottom of the barrier, then you have two different problems.

In order for condensate (moisture) to be present you need air so the vapor can condense out of it. You have air in the crawlspace, and if the temp dropped below the dewpoint, you'd get moisture on the underside of the subfloor, facing the crawlspace.

But there is no way that that moisture is going to travel thru the subfloor and thru the vinyl especially. And no new condensate will form there because there is no real air there. And the condensate on the OTHER side of the moisture barrier has got to be from something else. The other side would be subjected to the dewpoint within the house, as it's on the top side of the subfloor. And even so, there is no air there to provide any condensate (between the floorboards and the vapor barrier.

The only way for condensate to get on the inside of the barrier, realistically, is to have a major spill of some kind. Otherwise, what would be the point of the vapor barrier in the first place??

I believe the crawl space is supposed to be covered because you could get moisture trapped in the subfloor (wood) and then rott out and eventually soak the laminate. This would be WITHOUT the vapor barrier. But the vinyl layer in between will not allow water to soak thru it, so something is fishy..

Think of a cold glass of water. Your crawl space is the water. The moisture barrier is the glass and the interior of your home is the hotter atmosphere.
What happens to the outside of a cold glass of water, when it sits out in the heat?

Nothing will happen unless the glass can cool the air temperature to below it's dewpoint. And since there isn't any air there in the first place, no condensate will form anyway.

I just can't see how you can get condensate on the inside of the house in this scenario.

When you have a glass of cold water, the outside of the glass reaches a dew point on the surface. The out side surface of the glass, reaches a dew point as it cools off. It is not the water seeping through the glass. So you say there is no air under the laminate? I don't care where it is, if the material falls below dew point, condensation occurs. Even when there is 10% humidity, there is still a dew point.


Moisture barrier over vinyl.... Ask the manufacturer of the laminate why you shouldn't put a plastic moisture barrier over another moisture barrier.

....and the mystery continues. I am 99% sure that I haven't had any kind of a spill or leak since I am the only one living here, and if there WAS a leak, it sure didn't leave a puddle or stream, or any trace of such. I started to blame it on my dog slobbering until I saw how much moisture there really was under the laminate, so he's now in the clear.

I too couldn't imagine condensation with that much flooring under the new floor and as I said before, the joists and underside of the subfloor show no moisture at all, even with a moisture meter.

I thought it made sense to use the moisture barrier at the time, but now I don't know.

I keep chuckling to myself when I talk about a "floating" floor.

When you have a glass of cold water, the outside of the glass reaches a dew point on the surface. The out side surface of the glass, reaches a dew point as it cools off. It is not the water seeping through the glass. So you say there is no air under the laminate? I don't care where it is, if the material falls below dew point, condensation occurs. Even when there is 10% humidity, there is still a dew point.


Moisture barrier over vinyl.... Ask the manufacturer of the laminate why you shouldn't put a plastic moisture barrier over another moisture barrier.

Of course it's not the water seeping thru the glass. But you DO need air to produce condensate. The 'dew' is/was water vapor that because of temperature has been compressed within the individual 'air' molecule until the molecule can no longer hold it. Without air (in a vacuum, for example) this does not and cannot happen.

Take your glass example. Condensate will only form where there is direct airflow and contact with the cold glass. When you pick up your glass, the area UNDER the glass is dry. No airflow - no condensate. Not possible under any conditions. 'Materials' do not have dewpoints. Gases have dewpoints.

So again, if you have moisture on the top of the vapor barrier, either 1) you had a spill, or 2) there was moisture there to begin with. Even if the conditions were right inside your home to produce dew (with a %RH of 30-40%, you'd need an extremely low temperature), you would never see that much water like you are describing. Something else had to be the cause.

Also, putting one moisture barrier over another would do nothing to produce this problem. What negative effect would that have in any application? If there was moisture between the barriers it wouldn't be able to escape, but that's about it.

....and the mystery continues. I am 99% sure that I haven't had any kind of a spill or leak since I am the only one living here, and if there WAS a leak, it sure didn't leave a puddle or stream, or any trace of such. I started to blame it on my dog slobbering until I saw how much moisture there really was under the laminate, so he's now in the clear.

I too couldn't imagine condensation with that much flooring under the new floor and as I said before, the joists and underside of the subfloor show no moisture at all, even with a moisture meter.

I thought it made sense to use the moisture barrier at the time, but now I don't know.

I keep chuckling to myself when I talk about a "floating" floor.

When you say you laid down 1/4" underlayment, was this plywood? That's the only place the moisture could have came from, other than a spill or from inside the house somewhere, especially if the subfloor under the house is dry or low moisture.

I have one other possibility that I really hadn't considered.

I had placed a new humidifier on the floor and one day I put some antibacterial inhibitor it. I noticed later that it was foaming over. It was about 4 or 5 inches from a doorway and it got my new carpet wet in a small area.

On my old vinyl floor this area was the lowest point in the kitchen. Any spills back then would always go towards this doorway.

Is it possible that the vapor barrier could wick this water uphill and spread it on into the next room as well???

This is hard for me to fathom, but I see I have some very competent minds thinking for me here. I really don't think there was that much spillage. And actually, as I pulled the laminate up, this was one of the dryer areas.

Just another thought to throw out there.

...and I really do appreciate what you guys are telling me.

Fuente,

I didn't put down the underlayment, it was under the old vinyl. It looks more like a hardboard or masonite, not plywood.

CDW is the only expert in this thread. I'm just looking at it from a scientific point of view. Moisture only rolls one way..down hill; unless you have an absorbant material, which can produce 'capillary action' and the liquid can actually move 'uphill'. The vapor barrier is not absorbant...but your underlayment - cushioning is.

This laminate product has the cushion built it, and I believe it is a closed cell foam. It didn't soak up water at all.

well then that's not it. The mystery continues. It will be interesting to see if it happens again.

How is this whole floor supposed to breath? :)

I am confused. Your laminate already has the underlayment padding attached. Then you have a 2in1 padding, a 6mil poly, and a vinyl floor over top a plywood underlayment, then a wood subfloor , and all this over a crawl space that is ventilated but not covered?

I don't use a 6mil poly over top a wood subfloor, that goes over the soil, dry or not.

Still can't figure out why you woul have wetness on both sides of the numerous moisture barriers.

Are you using non-vented gas logs by chance? :alarm:

How is this whole floor supposed to breath? :)

I am confused. Your laminate already has the underlayment padding attached. Then you have a 2in1 padding, a 6mil poly, and a vinyl floor over top a plywood underlayment, then a wood subfloor , and all this over a crawl space that is ventilated but not covered?

I don't use a 6mil poly over top a wood subfloor, that goes over the soil, dry or not.

Still can't figure out why you woul have wetness on both sides of the numerous moisture barriers.

Are you using non-vented gas logs by chance? :alarm:

No unvented gas logs, and there is no 2-in-1 padding. There is silicone caulk around most of the perimeter between the laminate and where the barrier rises on the edges. There are 4 doorways in the perimeter, two of which meet directly with new carpet (no transition). One door leads down to a storm cellar and one door leads to the attached garage.

Randy

I'm only repeating what I have been taught. I have seen this only twice in my inspecting carrer.

The humidifier... There is you dew point. Temperature is dew point, not air flow. Air and atmosphere is all around us. Make a cube out of moisture Barrier. Is there air in the cube? Trapped air, is still air. What is a green house, and where does the moisture collect on a green house? The inside of your home, is the inside of a green house, so to speak. That humidifier, is all it takes to make condensation on the top of the moisture barriers.

I'm only repeating what I have been taught. I have seen this only twice in my inspecting carrer.

The humidifier... There is you dew point. Temperature is dew point, not air flow. Air and atmosphere is all around us. Make a cube out of moisture Barrier. Is there air in the cube? Trapped air, is still air. What is a green house, and where does the moisture collect on a green house? The inside of your home, is the inside of a green house, so to speak. That humidifier, is all it takes to make condensation on the top of the moisture barriers.

He said the humidity was 30-40% in the home. The temp would have to be extremely low to produce condensate. And I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'temperature is dewpoint'. The strict definition of dewpoint is t the temperature that a unit of air must be cooled to in order for saturation to occur. Only air, nothing else.

So what you are saying is that if I put a humidifier in my home, I will get condensate on any surface, no matter what?

And if I make a cube out of a moisture barrier or anything else that is non-absorbant, yes air is in there of course. But there is no air between the various layers of material on his floor.

And your home is not a greenhouse either. Greenhouses let light escape but not the heat. If that were true, my heating bill would be a lot less..!!!

The moisture has returned today.

Thursday, Friday and Saturday I had the plastic pulled back and a fan drying the vinyl floor thouroughly. I also ran a de-humidifier in my utility room for 3 days. The humidifier has been off since Wednesday and the humidity in my home is now 27% and the temp is around 71. The crawl space temp is around 60.

I laid the plastic back down yesterday evening and I now have an area near my water heater about 4 foot in diameter where the underside of the plastic is wet. When I removed the laminate, I left about a 2' x 2' area of it under the water heater so I wouldn't have to disturb it yet. The water heater shows no external leaks at all. There is no water on top of the laminate nor along the edges where it meets the wall. The plumbing goes into the wall and then down to the crawl space. Yet, any leak inside the wall should be evident as it follows the pipes into the crawl space.

As I dried out this room, I kept placing Bounty towels around the edges of the laminate under the water heater until it quit soaking up moisture. There is a wall between the water heater and my refrigerator. I rolled the refrigerator out and it is completely dry under it. So far, this is the only new moisture I have found.

is the moisture on top of the barrier, or between the barrier and the vinyl? If it is on top of the barrier, the room temperature would have to have been below 35F to reach the dewpoint, given 27%RH at 71F.

Not likely.

And if it's between the barrier and the vinyl, well, both of those materials are moisture barriers. No moisture should be between them.

You've got a leak somewhere that you just haven't found yet, IMHO.

I also took 74 photos as I pulled up each row of laminate. They may help you see what I had. You can see that the vinyl floor was in pretty bad shape with a lot of surface spalling. My thought is that the water on TOP of the barrier had just found it's way up through a wrinkle in the tape and the force of walking on this area.

The first photo is a scan of the CAD layout I made when I planned the installation. I used it to sketch where I found surface water on top of the barrier (the sketched line). The arrows show the slope of the floor in both rooms.

http://photobucket.com/albums/y248/kscoyote/Laminate%20Photos/?sc=1

is the moisture on top of the barrier, or between the barrier and the vinyl?

Between the barrier and the vinyl. No moisture on top.

was there moisture under the vinyl before installation of the laminate? It looks pretty bad, at the water could have been pushed to the top of the barrier by walking on the floor - absolutely possible and probably the way it got there. No other real possiblity. So one problem solved.

Maybe there was water under the vinyl, and you didn't notice it when you put in the floor? Now you are walking on the laminate, and the weight of the boards themselves is dispersing the water?

I can't imagine how or why there would have been water under the vinyl. It seems I would have noticed something. And again, 4 people including a licensed plumber have searched for any plumbing or drain leaks and found none.

I added todays photo to the photobucket site. It will be the last photo on page 4.

Strange...strange....strange....

Just a stab in the dard but one more thing to consider. Any possiblity you may have rain-leak somewhere? Window? roof? Gas-hot water vent? Could be seeping down inside the wall into the floor. You may have an accumulation of rainwater that is seeping slowly.

entirely possible. with that amount of water, and the accumulation overnight (I'm assuming) from your photos, that looks to me like a leak somewhere for sure.

That's a lot of water.

That was a great question.

The water heater vents straight up. I pulled down the escutcheon plate on the ceiling and it is dry. We haven't had much precipitation here in Kansas. I will look in the attic though and report back.

I'm here for any thoughts....none are too bizarre. (Except for maybe my own dog drool theory).

I added 3 pictures of the water heater at the bottom of this page

http://photobucket.com/albums/y248/kscoyote/Laminate%20Photos/?start=60

I just checked my attic and found nothing. I have about a foot a blown rock wool and it is all dry. I specifically checked around the water heater vent. The whole area above these two rooms looks fine.

was all that accumulation in the photos over one night?

was all that accumulation in the photos over one night?

yep! It sure seems to point to that water heater. But I am at a loss to explain how or why. I guess I could dry it out again and leave the plastic back to see if I get a stream.

does it accumulate during the day?

I don't know. I just pulled all the plastic back and dried the area out. I think I'll leave it pulled back to see what happens. I'm going to lunch in a few minutes and will be back in an hour or two.

Keep the thinking caps on....I really do appreciate all of your help!

well, what I would do is to pull up a spot in the vinyl and see if it's saturated. That, and try to figure out when the water starts to accumulate.

Is that rust stains I see on the gas water heater vent pipe? I know it's galvanized metal but it appears to be stained.

Football's fixin to start :wall:

Is that rust stains I see on the gas water heater vent pipe? I know it's galvanized metal but it appears to be stained.

Football's fixin to start :wall:

No, it's not rust. It is some other kind of gunk that doesn't come off. Looks like varnish. It has always been there.

I have the plastic on the floor pulled back and also placed a square of Saran Wrap on the vinyl 3 ft. from the water heater to see if moisture pops up there.

Go Broncos!

well, what I would do is to pull up a spot in the vinyl and see if it's saturated. That, and try to figure out when the water starts to accumulate.

Are you thinking there might be a reason that the water would accumulate at night? My furnace thermostat does kick back to 62 at night, but wouldn't that actually bring the temperature difference closer?

I've run hot water while laying on my belly observing the water heater. I also put a plate under the water heater and paper towels around the base just in case it decides to burp when I'm not around.

I'm starting to run out of ideas here.

I have no idea.

Did you see condensate on the TOP of the laminate at any point? And did you ever see condensate on any other surfaces in the room? If not, then you don't have a problem with the dewpoint INSIDE the house. I don't see how, even if the underlayment is saturated, it could come up thru the vinyl. By design, vinyl does not allow water to permeate.

I'm still as confused as you...but you'll find the problem eventually.

This is to funny arging with you..


The surface temperature of any mass reaching a temperature of dew point will collect moisture, even if the surrounding air is no where close to dew point.

You think that crawl space is as warm as the interior of the home?

Even though there is a moisture barrier. how is the underside of the subfloor completely sealed so there are no drafts or air leaks coming from beneath. I mean completely sealed too, not just plywood over the joists.

What is the temperature right now, inside the crawl space? What was it last night, as your temp inside the house was lowered because of the automatic thermostat??


I have a clear picture of what is happening. This is text book dew point, and one of the main reasons for not placing a moisture barrier over a moisture barrier.

No, I've never seen any condensate on the laminate, windows or anywhere else. But I still see moisture wicking out between the vinyl and plastic barrier UNDER the water heater, where it seemed to originate this morning. WEIRD!

Take a hygrometer(temp & rH) reading right where your seeing this problem. then take a hygrometer reading in the crawl space right under this problem.

The hot water heater is how old? It sounds to me like you have done everything to rule out the hot water heater.

Then we can come to a conclusion.

CDW, I'm not arguing with you. You're the expert here...on flooring. The science part is what you have incorrect.

Whoever taught you abut dewpoint is incorrect also. Take a quick lesson: only AIR is subject to dewpoint. Where do you think the moisture comes from? That is appears magically on the surface of any material when that material reaches it's 'dewpoint'? It originates as water vapor; which only exists in gas molecules. The reason it sits on the surfaces of things is because when the airflow hits the surface, it instantly shrinks the gas molecule and the water vapor condenses. And it sticks to the surface due to surface tension.

If your explaination is what you give your customers, and that was me, I'd be worried...

It is entirely possible that dew is forming on the underside of the subfloor. And entirely possible that it's getting all the way up to the underside of the vinyl, due to cracks, air leaks, etc. But there is no way it is getting thru the vinyl and forming that much on the surface. Simple science tells you that. I'd be curious to find out why I can't put a moisture barrier over a moisture barrier...over another moisture barrier. It doesn't matter how many layers you have. Scientifically, it doesn't matter, that is.

No, I've never seen any condensate on the laminate, windows or anywhere else. But I still see moisture wicking out between the vinyl and plastic barrier UNDER the water heater, where it seemed to originate this morning. WEIRD!

If you can visibly see it wicking out, then you've got a leak somewhere, somehow.

Not only am I certified as a flooring failure inspector, I also hold a welding and coatings certification.

The coating cert is the one I'm working off of here as dew point and surface temperature is crucial. If the surface temp is below dew point, no coatings get applied that day, because moisture is always present on the surface.


This is the same reason the glass gets moisture on the outside. The cold water, cooler then dew point, cools the outside of the glasses surface below dew point. Is moisture seen physically on the outside of the glass? YES!!

If it is just tap water that is warmer then the dew point temperature, do you see moisture collecting on the outside of the glass? NO!!


Ok lets look at this another way. A glass with no water in it. Set it in the fridge and let it cool below dew point of the interior of the home. Remove the glass from the fridge or freezer and set it on the counter, and observe. What is going to happen to the inside and out side surfaces?

Temperature of the mass, plays an important roll in condensation on surfaces.

fuente, are you by chance an engineer by trade?

When I say wicking out, what I mean is...there is still about a 4" strip of plastic hanging out form the remaining laminate. If I let it lay down on the vinyl floor, moisture will spread out from under the water heater to the edge of the plastic, where I suppose it then evaporates. But where it is pulling all this moisture from ..is what's baffling me.

The vinyl floor and underlayment end just under the quarter-round (short of the wall). If there were moisture under the vinyl, or under the underlayment, I would think it would take the path of least resistance and run down at that point. Then I would see moisture in the crawl space.

CDW, I am getting the RH readings for you. The temp in the crawl space right now is 54. I put a remote temp transmitter down there this afternoon.

The water heater is also near a door that goes to an attached garage. There is also a pet door in that door, so the temp on the floor would drop more than the rest of the floor.

I see this as very constructive arguing, in that we are all learning something from this. Thanks!

Not only am I certified as a flooring failure inspector, I also hold a welding and coatings certification.

The coating cert is the one I'm working off of here as dew point and surface temperature is crucial. If the surface temp is below dew point, no coatings get applied that day, because moisture is always present on the surface.


This is the same reason the glass gets moisture on the outside. The cold water, cooler then dew point, cools the outside of the glasses surface below dew point. Is moisture seen physically on the outside of the glass? YES!!

If it is just tap water that is warmer then the dew point temperature, do you see moisture collecting on the outside of the glass? NO!!


Ok lets look at this another way. A glass with no water in it. Set it in the fridge and let it cool below dew point of the interior of the home. Remove the glass from the fridge or freezer and set it on the counter, and observe. What is going to happen to the inside and out side surfaces?

Temperature of the mass, plays an important roll in condensation on surfaces.

fuente, are you by chance an engineer by trade?

There you go. The mass temperature has everything to do with dewpoint, but it does not HAVE a dewpoint. You don't weld on those days because you know that if the material is too cold, it will reduce the temperature of the GAS it comes in contact with to below IT'S dewpoint, and condensation will form.

Just remember that the condensation comes from the gas, not the surface. The surfaces temperature, and the %RH of the gas, dictates what and when that dewpoint will be reached. Gas molecules with higher %RH (say, a tropical climate) have a higher dewpoint, because the gas molecule is basically saturated with vapor; it only takes a little bit of 'cold' to shrink the molecule enough so that the vapor condenses. Dry climates, say Las Vegas, have a much lower %RH, which requires a lot more 'cold' to pop that molecule. Hence, a lower dewpoint.

You're explaination of tap water and cold water is spot on...assuming that the temperature of the glass is the same as the water in it. But that's another topic for another day...

You're example of the glass in the fridge or freezer is, well, relative to the dewpoint temperature of the gas in the house. If the %RH in the home is very low, then the dewpoint will also be low. So unless that temperature coming out of the fridge or freezer is low enough to pull the gas temp below it's dewpoint, dew will not form.

And yes, I'm an engineer..!

Back to the problem; he's seeing large amounts of moisture. It cannot be coming from inside the house due to the room gas reaching it's dewpoint temp. And I can't see how it can come up thru the vinyl, especially in that amount of area. I could see a few spots where the vinyl is cracked, but that's a huge amount of water, over a large area, coming up very quickly.

And yes, I'm an engineer..!




How do you think I knew that??? :)




I see exactly what is happening here!!! No need to over analyize this, and make it more complicated and confusing, then it really is.

Yes as stated many times in this thread, I have said surface temperature plays an important role. This is the first time you have agreed!! Why the change of mind.

We can weld all day in the fog. You can't apply a coating to the surface if dew point is near or already reached.

When you have a glass of cold water, the outside of the glass reaches a dew point on the surface. The out side surface of the glass, reaches a dew point as it cools off. It is not the water seeping through the glass. So you say there is no air under the laminate? I don't care where it is, if the material falls below dew point, condensation occurs. Even when there is 10% humidity, there is still a dew point.


This is what you said, and it was wrong. You need air to get condensate. I think you understand that now. Without it, all you have is a cold, dry piece of whatever.

CDW,
The RH in the crawl space is 36% and the temp is 54F. The RH at the water heater is 27% at 71F.

So what you are seeing is caused by the moisture barrier OVER the vinyl? Am I reading your conclusion right? You guys lost me a looonnng time ago.

Randy :wall:

if you know what is happening, then tell us how the water is getting on the topside of the vinyl.

Then we can all get back to watching Seattle kick the crap out of Carolina.

CDW,
The RH in the crawl space is 36% and the temp is 54F. The RH at the water heater is 27% at 71F.

So what you are seeing is caused by the moisture barrier OVER the vinyl? Am I reading your conclusion right? You guys lost me a looonnng time ago.

Randy :wall:

The dewpoint temp of the gas in your crawlspace is approximately 26F. The dewpoint temp at the water heater is approximately 35F. The crawlspace RH is low; which means, well, that unless you have a huge amount of airflow under the house, there is no way that you could generate that much moisture from there, because when the gas molecules 'give up' their condensate, they would need to be 'replaced', thru airflow, by new molecules, at a very fast rate.

The dewpoint at the water heater probably doesn't matter much, because if I understand correctly, that's above ground.

and why hasn't this problem surfaced somewhere in the world before? It doesn't sound to me like such an unusual set of circumstances, especially since the manufacturer and retailer both recommend the moisture barrier over any surface.

CDW, does this suprise you, and if so, what is the next step for this fellow? Also, his question about the two moisture barriers is something I cannot get my head around either, scientifically.

Look up green house effect, where flooring is concerned.

Trap air with moisture, and no ventalation. then lower the temperature of that trapped air.

One moisture barrier is on a cooler or cold surface, and the other moisture barrier on top is warmer from the climate inside the home.

The humidity is not Zero, there is moisture available.

OK dew point for 71º @ 27% is? How consistant is this reading from morning to afternoon to night fall? Now what is the crawl space temp that is cooling the bottom vinyl moisture barrier at night and early morning? Has it been below freezing or below 35.38º

Now we also know, there is a door to the non climate controlled garage near by. The door is not sealed air tight, with a pet door. How about the threshold is it air tight too?

Bingo!


I see where your engineering, is thinking temperature and humidity is always constant. This is not a set perimeter for dew point. It can flash a dew point and within minutes not be at or below dew point. Then you have lack of air flow under the laminate flooring and both moisture barriers. Now in between the two layers, you have a mini green house.

Tell us what the temp in the crawl space is in the morning, when it is the coolest, and then what the temp and humidity is in the morning, as conditions are always changing.

So, if I buy identical new laminate, and put it down WITHOUT the plastic barrier, everything will be peachy???

Or would you recommend tearing up the old vinyl and subfloor.

Tell us what the temp in the crawl space is in the morning, when it is the coolest, and then what the temp and humidity is in the morning, as conditions are always changing.


Will do, first thing in the morning before I head off to work.

Thanks!

Look up green house effect, where flooring is concerned.

Trap air with moisture, and no ventalation. then lower the temperature of that trapped air.

One moisture barrier is on a cooler or cold surface, and the other moisture barrier on top is warmer from the climate inside the home.

The humidity is not Zero, there is moisture available.

OK dew point for 71º @ 27% is? How consistant is this reading from morning to afternoon to night fall? Now what is the crawl space temp that is cooling the bottom vinyl moisture barrier at night and early morning? Has it been below freezing or below 35.38º

Now we also know, there is a door to the non climate controlled garage near by. The door is not sealed air tight, with a pet door. How about the threshold is it air tight too?

Bingo!


I see where your engineering, is thinking temperature and humidity is always constant. This is not a set perimeter for dew point. It can flash a dew point and within minutes not be at or below dew point. Then you have lack of air flow under the laminate flooring and both moisture barriers. Now in between the two layers, you have a mini green house.

your flooring seems to defy the laws of physics !!

Seriously, there are MANY holes in your theory. First, if you did have trapped air between the barriers, you wouldn't continue to see moisture over and over. You're saying the doggie door is causing airflow across the entire room, between the two moisture barriers? Where does the air flow to? Does it just blow up the two barriers like a big balloon? Jeez...

The 'flooring greehouse effect'? Didn't know that existed between two moisture barriers. Maybe you are using the wrong wording. The greenhouse effect is when temperature INCREASES, and heat is trapped in. That doesn't help your theory much. You need the temp to drop in order to prove what you are saying.

Skyote, good luck in finding your problem. As I am not an expert in flooring I cannot give you any further advice.

Temp and Humidity constant? Nothing is ever constant.

Bottom line is that how you are explaining this situation is phyically impossible. It cannot happen. Maybe for another reason, but not the reason you are describing.

It's been fun, and I've learned a lot chatting with you on this thread as well as on others.

Good luck Skyote.

Thanx a million for all of your input, Fuente!

No what I'm saying is, the bottom is cooler then the top. We have confirmed that. But how much cooler is not an afternoon temperature. All this dew point could be happening over night "if" the underside(the vinyl) drops to dew point levels.

The 2 times I have witnessed this, it was over concrete, and the concrete temp was below dew point.

This is just an opinion from a computer monitor, but if the crawl space is below the interiors dew point level and cools down the vinyl enough to be below the dew point level. It is tuff to call because of the ever changing conditions.

As long as you know there is no hot water heater leaking, or a diswasher that has sprung a leak, or a faucet leak or an ice maker that has a leak, or sewage drain with a leak in the wall, or a roof leak making it's way down the framing. No pets urinating on the floor, I'm sticking with dew point.


It may very well be a leak, I'm not there to see for myself. With all that has been said and documented by the poster, their house is posessed, or there is a dew point flashing on top of the moisture barriers.

First ..... I have "never" had any mfg. tell me to put down a moisture barrier unless the substrate is a slab.

Second ...... I don't lay vinyl, but i have told that it "does" allow water vapor or emissions to pass thru it. Something to do with VOC or VEC (I don't remember the exact terminology there)., on that subject I am more than ignorant.

Third .... "wet goes to dry", unless you create alot of air circulation to minimize that effect.

Ya'll have a great day :)

First ..... I have "never" had any mfg. tell me to put down a moisture barrier unless the substrate is a slab.

See the instructions at the bottom of page 5, under 'Two-in One Advanced Hard-Surfaced Flooring Underlayment"

Mine has the attached underlayment.

http://www.armstrong.com/content2/resam/files/17882.pdf

You need to keep reading partner.

See the instructions under subfloor requirements and vinyl over plywood.

Pull up that 6mil poly, untape the seams on the 2in1, and cover up the soil in the crawl space like the instructions tell you to do.

First of all, there is no 2-in-1 to tape. This laminate has built in underlayment. Second, nowhere does it say NOT to use plastic barrier over vinyl. It also says the moisture barrier in the crawl space is 'recommended'.

The salesperson told me to use visqueen under the laminate, and after this incident I contacted Armstrong, whose customer service rep told me that they recommend the moisture barrier and that I did the installation correctly.

There are NO implicit directions not to use the barrier.

Does anyone else read what I am reading?

I'm not arguing with you son. :)

Nowhere does it say "TO" use a moisture barrier over top a wood subfloor. Your salesman gave you bad information and so did Armstrong.

I am sorry I mentioned the 2in1 taped seams, but you messed up by laying down plastic over the vinyl and you refuse to cover the crawl space soil with a moisture barrier.

Peace!

aw shucks, Pops I know we aren't arguing here. But try to think like an average Joe Do-It-Yourselfer like me. You gather information and plan these things. When I read the instructions, paired with the information that the sales people gave me, it seemed to make sense, and I didn't really question it. Even the Armstrong rep. who came out to look at it AND the rep from the store where I bought it, said I did the installation right.

I DO heartily agree with you NOW that installing the barrier was the wrong thing to do. It only exacerbated the problem. Wherever the moisture came from, it became trapped between the layers with no way out.

My question now is...who is to blame? IMHO, it should go 3 ways. The retailer, Armstrong and myself.

In regards to the crawl space barrier, I know it's usually recommended no matter what kind of floor you have. I've considered it before, but I've never had any moisture problems in my home or crawl space. The water table here is deep, and I have good drainage around my home and property. In my mind, it could be a nightmare if you had a pipe break in the crawl space, and the barrier turned it into a swimming pool.

Thanks for your input, Jerry...

Skyote, I am completely on your side here. :)

In my view you did nothing wrong except to follow some bad advice from the very people who are supposed to know better. I feel since you were asking them for advice the blame is on the salesman and Armstrong. Armstrong's directions are woefully lacking on important details.

I sincerely hope they step up to the plate and resolve this problem at their expense.

Have a great day

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

After drying out my floor and laying the back down, I was sure that if I had a leak of any kind, it would surely return. On Wednesday, I decided I had gone long enough without my humidifier running, so I put it back where it originally had been next to the door to my living room, but on the plastic barrier just inside my kitchen. The next morning I found that the humidifier had once again foamed over and left a small stream about 8" to my new carpet. In a hurry to get to work, I soaked up what I could with paper towels, and put a whole roll of paper towels over the small area and weighted it down. I also turned a fan on the carpet to dry it out.
When I came home from work I walked in the kitchen and low and behold I had about a 6 ft. diameter wet area UNDER the plastic. The plastic barrier over the vinyl floor had actually wicked the water from the carpet UPHILL. It is now obvious that this is where the water originally came from. The act of walking on it then forced the water to other areas, thus my entire floor and the utility room all got wet! I am totally convinced that had I not put this barrier down per the salesman's and Armstrongs instructions, this would never had happened. Today I called the Armstrong rep and explained it all, and he STILL says he would recommend the plastic barrier over the vinyl floor. I hope now I can document what other mfg recommend in this situation. I plan to replace the floor with new laminate WITHOUT a moisture barrier.

Thanks to CDW, fuente and Jerry T for their help and advice! :)