Lighting, Light Fixtures, Ceiling and Exhaust Fans - Fan and Dual Light with remote replacing chain-pull unit won't work

Happy new year, all...

I'm having quite a bit of difficulty with a new fan, I thought I'd see if anyone on this forum could help before I hire an electrician, it may just be a simple oversight on my behalf. Disclaimer: I am as green as they come with electricity, so I am going to describe everything I see and did on this unit...

Old unit: fan and single light each with a pullchain, each operated by a separate wall switch. New unit: fan and double light (top and bottom) with no pullchain, each operated by a remote control.

Wire coming out of ceiling has one white, one black, one bare. Per instructions, I attached to remote receiver: white/white and black/black, bare wire connected to two green wires, one from mounting bracket, one from downrod. The other side of the receiver had four wires, orange, blue, white, and black; attached those four to the same color wires entering the downrod.

Nothing works at all. New battery in the remote, checked dip switches, tried wall switches in different positions (on/off, off/off/, on/on, off/on). The wall switch that runs the light has two wires leading into the back: red on top, black on bottom. The switch that runs the fan has two also: red on top, white on bottom.

I've been playing with this all day, any help would be appreciated!

Jeremy

:wall:

Make sure the wall switch or switches are on.
Make sure the breaker is on. Turn it off and back on again.
Make sure the battery in the transmitter is fresh.
Make sure the code in the transmitter matches the code in the receiver. (Perhaps you have one of the dip switches upside down and have one set, for example, at 0110 and the other at 1001, but they look the same to you.)
Check that the bulbs are working.
Press and hold the light button, since it's possible that the lights are fully dimmed and thus look off.
Double-check all of your connections.
It sounds like you already checked most of that.

If you own any kind of tester, you could check that you are getting voltage at the ceiling wires. This test can be done with something as simple as a $2 neon circuit tester.

If at any time during this installation, you did something wrong and tripped the breaker with overcurrent, you probably fried the remote receiver.

I did everything on that list...I'll pick up a circuit tester tomorrow and try that out. Not sure if you are familiar with these specific types, but do you suppose its possible that I could test it without damaging anything by bypassing the receiver? I guess it's always possible that everything will default to 'off' with no way to manually override the remote's functions, though.

Yes, you can bypass the receiver. That would be a good experiment. Or you could leave out the receiver permanently if you want. Sometimes the remote is not as convenient as the wall switches.

Still working on this problem...bought a multimeter: with both switches on, the black and white wires are each registering 122.6V...is that normal for both to carry a charge?

Tested it without the receiver, no luck...talked to tech support, they said replace it, so I did...same problem with the new unit.

Could it perhaps have something to do with the way the switch is wired? The old lamp had a red wire that the new one does not, not sure if it may be wired differently to accomodate...?

Voltage is a relative reading between two points. Specifying that "the black and white wires are each registering 122.6V" is not meaningful information by itself unless we know what this voltage was measured relative to. If you meant that you got 122.6 volts when measuring between black and white, then that is normal. If you meant that you got 122.6 volts between the black wire and ground, and also between the white wire and ground, then that is not normal. If you did mean this second thing, then what do you read between black and white?

Note also that because of "phantom voltage" (google it), a digital multimeter is more misleading than helpful for most home wiring. A simple $2 neon circuit tester is usually much better.

I suspect you may have an open neutral, but please clarify the points in my first paragraph before we speculate further.

The second statement was what I meant...both switches on: red DMM tester on black wire from ceiling, black DMM tester on ground wire, it read 122.6; same switch configuration but black DMM tester on white wire from ceiling, white also registered 122.6. If I turn off the fan switch at the wall and leave the light switch on, the black wire will test 0.0 (again, black tester to ground) and the white is still 122. If I reverse the switch order, fan on and light off, the test results reverse: white 0.0 and black 122 (each, again, tested independently while grounded to the ground wire on the mounting harness).

Hope that helps, I'll stop and get a light tester today to test for phantom voltage, I actually saw that in another posting of yours late last night.

Thanks again John

So let's double-check facts. In the ceiling box, there is just one white wire, one black wire, and one bare wire, right? No chance that there's actually more than one wire of each color, is there? Perhaps extra wires tucked in the back of the box you didn't mention before?

What I suspect happened is that some ill-informed on unethical person in the past wanted separate switches for the fan and light, didn't have enough wires, and was too cheap or lazy to replace the cable. So he converted the white wire to be the second hot wire, and then used the bare wire as the neutral. This is dangerous, but unfortunately, all too common.

Shut off the breaker, open up the switch box, and check the wiring in the switch box. You'll probably see two black/white/bare cables. The white wire of one cable will be connected to the bare wire of the other cable (very bad!). And the black and white wire of one cable will be connected to the two switches. Report back and tell us if this is what you find.

OK, there is a lot in there to describe so I made up a quick-n-dirty diagram and posted it on my webserver:

http://darkmatterventures.com/wiring.jpg

Hope this explains what is in there...it appears your suspicion is correct, all of the ground wires are bound to a white wire. My assumption is that Wire 1 in the diagram feeds the ceiling fan/light.

If this is truly what they did, it spawns two questions: 1. how can I wire this mess so that one switch will provide power to the entire device (I'll control the individual lights and fan with the remote), and 2. how much damage did I likely do to the device by trying to turn it on?

This is bad, really bad.

Since you are using the remote control, you don't need the two separate switches anyway.

The connections at the fan can stay as you originally described them. So all you have to do now is remove the white wire going to the fan from the duplex switch and connect it to the white wire from the power cable. That will fix all your fan problems. The switch you removed the white wire from will now do nothing, but you don't really need it to do anything anyway. Simply use your remote control and leave the other switch on at all times.

It seems you have the same situation duplicated, once with two separate switches on the left, and once with a duplex switch on the right. Fix them both the same way. Make sure that grounding wires are only connected to other grounding wires and grounding screws. You should never, ever permit a grounding wire to be connected to any wire other than another grounding wire.

Note that the idiot that did this may have screwed up other wiring in your house too. Keep an eye out for it. Consider doing (or having done) a fully inspection of the electrical system.

OK, I completely removed the middle switch, coupled the white wires from "light" and "wire 3", and it still won't work. I bought a $2 circuit tester that lights up either 110/220...when the switch is on, no lights or fans turn on still but the tester still lights up when I test the black or white wire coming from the ceiling. I tested the connections inside of a light recepticle on the fan, same thing: the tab on the side and the nub at the bottom will both light up the 110 light on the tester (grounded to the ceiling mount). I think we're almost there, did I miss a step?

I'm not sure I understand what you did. Can you draw another picture of how it is now?

http://darkmatterventures.com/wiring2.jpg

You have corrected the left switch. This should make your fan work now. If it does not, you may have fried the remote. Try the experiment of removing the remote receiver again. Use your neon tester across the black and white wires at the fan. Does it light up? (Your last report had the same problem as the first report--it did not identify both points you put your tester on.)

Note, on the left switch, it looks like the black wire is connected to the grounding screw. I assume that this is just the picture and that your real connections are not this way. It also looks like the left switch is a 3-way switch. I imagine your real switch is not. Have I interpreted these two points correctly?

You still have a very serious hazard on the duplex switch on the right. This needs to be corrected.

Putting the black tester wire onto the ceiling mount where the green wire from the fan attaches: touching the red tester wire to the white wire from the ceiling, the 110 light turns on; touching the red tester wire to the black wire from the ceiling, the 110 light turns on. Putting the black tester wire onto the white wire from the ceiling and the red tester wire onto the black wire from the ceiling, nothing lights up.

Second questions: the switch on the left has two screws on the side (upper and lower) and two holes in the back (also upper and lower). The wires are going into the holes in the back.

That doesn't make much sense. It's possible that this is screwed up more than we realize.

You should do the same tests on the cable at the switch box that you think brings in power. Temporarily disconnect these two wires from everything else, and then test them.

Is it possible that you got confused about which switches controlled the fan? Maybe the duplex switch on the right controlled this fan instead of the two switches on the left? That would explain what you're seeing.

Nope, I use those switches often, I'm certain what devices were controlled by them.

OK, spent 4 hours today on this problem and made some progress, at least. I disconnected the white wire from the duplex and connected all of the white wires:

I got some light! But very dim and fluctuating...back to the multimeter: red tester on black wire, black tester to ground wire: 122V. red tester on black wire, black tester to white wire: 46V. Barely enough to light up the 4 bulbs on the lamp (and not enought to light up the circuit tester), but some progress, nonetheless.

Here's where it gets confusing (for me, anyway): in the current state, the bottom device on the duplex does not work (no problem, never used it anyway), but the top one does work. Not critical info, but it may be a clue? With the red tester on the black wire to the fan (in the switch box) and the black wire of the tester on the wad of ground wires: 122V. With the red tester on the black wire to the fan and the black tester to the wad of white wires: 46V. OK, consistency is good. Removed wire C from the mix and retested the black wire to the fan against the remaining white wires: still 46V. Re-added C and removed B (so, testing A and C against the black wire to the fan): less than one volt. Disconnected all white wires from each other and tested independently against the black wire to the fan: A=.5V, B=122V, C=.5V. So, when removed from A, B completes a circuit without lowering the voltage. On a hunch, I put the red tester against B and the black tester against the ground wires: 108V. I confirmed with the circuit tester that it would light up (presumably showing it was not phantom voltage?).

So, two steps forward, one back. Is there any way to salvage this mess, even if it means removing the duplex and using two single switches? Or do I absolutely need to have a pro come out and re-wire? I fear this idiot spread this wiring methodology throughout my house, it looks like they added ceiling fans and additional lights about 5-7 years ago...could get messy and expensive.

This has moved beyond my powers to remotely diagnose. And I don't think that continuing to experiment is a good idea. Even if you get it to work without injuring yourself or starting a fire, you could accidentally create a latent hazard that could cause injury or damage six months from now. Not everything that works is safe. I'd take the cautious road here.

OK, I figured we were getting close to that point...thanks for all your help, John, I appreciate it!

Jeremy

You've probably long since hired an electrician to fix this, but in case it's still out there:

I think part of the problem is, we have no idea what's on the other end of Wire 2. I'm assuming Wire 3 is the source, and Wire 1 is the fan, but Wire 2 . . . it looks like the neutral is still being used as a hot, only you're tying it to neutral.

Try this. Completely disconnect all the wires coming from wire 2 (it's not safe anyways).

Connect black from wire one to the fan switch. Black from wire 3 to the other side of the fan switch. Connect the white from wire 1 to the white from wire 3. If the fan switch has a white, connect it to the other whites. Connect all the relevant grounds together.

Right now, neither of the items on the duplex switch should work-- we disconnected them. But the fan should. If it doesnt, there are other problems.

Wire 1 went to the fan, wire 2 was incoming from the box vis-a-vi who knows where else in the system, and wire 3 powered a half switch and outside light...the problem, as I suspected, was that the only white wire (on wire 2) that returned back to the source was carrying voltage...some idiot somewhere along the way found a way to put voltage on white and use it as another hot line to power the fan separate of the light...had an electrician look at it, the only fix was to run another line to that switch or start tearing the walls up and figure out where that white wire comes from.

Thanks for the reply...

Jeremy