Kitchen Gas Appliances - Gas oven ignites then shuts off after 2-3 seconds

2 year old Whirlpool Imperial Series 465 Gas (Propane) Oven ignites but after 2-3 seconds, the flame goes out. The broiler continues to operate normally. Ignitor bar appears normal. Of course this failure started sudenly and shortly after the warranty expired. I checked for voltage from the Oven Control circuit board to the Direct Spark Ignition Control (DSIC) and there is a signal for each (low voltage, short trigger burst), however I have no information to check the output voltage and type from the DSIC board to the gas valve. The tech sheet that came with the oven has the interconnection circuits shown but does not provide any information on signal voltages, etc.. Sugestions? Any information available to check output voltages or the gas valve operation?

Hello keys and Welcome to the Do It Yourself Web Site and my Gas Appliances topic.

Either the gas valve is defective or the glow ignitor is weak. The glow ignitor may be glowing but simply not hot enough to pass enough current to the gas valve.

Which means we incorrectly evaluate the ignitors condition by the color and temperature to determine if the ignitor is functioning correctly.

Hot surface ignitors use current to glow but they require plenty. When they reach a preset value of resistance to the current they allow 5 volts to pass onto the gas valve so it can open.

A weak ignitor is absorbing too much current in an attempt to glow hot enough to provide positive ignition. Little or No current is left to activate the gas valve.

Best first attempt to fix it is to replace that ignitor. Unplug the appliance and remove the existing ignitor. Replace it with exact OEM ignitor. Subsitute brand names may not be equally the same. Always best to replace the gas valve and the HSI at the same time. Regardless of the age in time of the HSI. As mentioned prior, an HSI is not a long life part nor worth not replacing when there is a need to replace a gas valve.

Most replacement ignitors come already equipped with the quick disconnect reinstalled on the wire end of the new ignitor. If not you will have to clip off the end from the old ignitor and install it on the new ignitors wires. Polarity is not important in this case.

Try this first and note the results. If it resolves the problem, post back the results. If the new ignitor does not correct the problem, than the only other option may be to replace the gas valve.

FYI:
The do-it-yourself person can do electrical tests and continuity tests on several of the parts often used in ovens. However, neither of these tests will provide proof positive the part being tested is actually functioning correctly. Do not rely solely on either test.

TIP:
Keep in mind, that the only positive proof any part is functioning correctly, is to carefully remove the part or parts you suspect to be the potential culprit, and have the local appliance parts store person run the required tests to help make the final determination.

Help Link: Range-Stove-Oven-Broiler Basic Help Information & Manufacturers Web Sites: http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=159808

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I've ordered the glow bar and will try that when it arrives. I was hoping to find better trouble shooting information before simply replacing parts till the problem is resolved. I do appreciate at least finding out that the gas valve works on 5 volts. I assume that this is 5 volts AC, or is this a DC solenoid operated valve? Having only the connection plan, without the actual circuit diagrams for each of the boards and their input/output voltages makes circuit tracing practically impossible. Any additional information on the circuit logic and the design resistance of the glow bar will be helpfull, since the cost of a glow bar, gas valve and DSIC board will exceed the value of the stove.

The current operation appears to be a very low voltage (< 1 Volt AC) momentary signal is sent from the Oven Control to the DSCI for broiler and oven operation, which initiates a secondary electrical output to the glow bar and valve at the same time on their seperate wiring looms. I assume that from the information you provided, once the glow bar comes up to temperature, it's resistance drops thus requiring less current, allowing more to pass to the valve, thus opening this with a 5 volt sustained flow to keep the valve open. Is this correct? Does the glow bar and thevalve operate at the same voltage? Any information on the coil resistance in the gas valve to check this would also be helpful, plus the operating parameters so that I can bypass the glow bar to check for proper operation of the valve before orderig this too will be greatly appreciated.

Also, is this a fairly common operation for gas ovens with computer controls, or is this unique to this Whirlpool model, and how does the temperature sensor work into this circuit logic? If that part was defective, could it create the same symptoms, and how can this be checked to eliminate this from the trouble shooting equation?

Thank you for all of your assistance.

Replacing the Hot Surface Ignitor did not change the problem. The flame still comes on for 2-4 seconds after turning on the oven, then extinguishes (gas flow stops). Next suggestion?

Hello: Keys

I fully agree with you. Replacing parts until the problem is solved is not the correct method. However, in a text only format such as this, without being on location in your home, the only logical and possible best method is to determine which part is the most likely to cause the problem.

With that said, the easiest and least expensive part and the part that is most likely to cause the problem is the HSI (Hot Surface Ignitor) Thus I suggested replacing that part first as the first attempt to fix the problem. Which it often does based upon the many members for whom it already has. As evident in reading the many existing posts and replies offered in this forum topic.

In your case replacing the HSI did not solve the problem. Therefore, the next step is to replace the gas control valve. (>>>Which does infact operate on A/C volts. About 5 volts is all it takes.<<<) However, if the HSI is too weak and never reaches full temp, it will continue to absorb all the A/C current in an attempt to reach full temp, which is about 1200+ degrees.

Usually a service tech replaces both the HSI and the gas valve during such repairs. Doing so insures success the first time and on the first service call to the home. Also insures a satisfied customer the first time around.

All to often only an HSI gets replaced and shortly there after (usually within the 90 day HSI warranty period most agencies warranty the parts for) the gas valve fails. In that case, the service person and or agency has to make a return trip labor ree..... :eek: :thumbdn: to refix what should have been done on the first call. Thus, replacing both parts is cost effective for the company and/or service tech but not always for the customer.

My suggestion to you now is to replace the gas valve and hope it solves the problem. May or may not but in my opinion, is worth the time and $. If this does not solve the problem, board replacement would be required and is very likely to solve the problem. Not cheap but very likely to solved the problem.

Costing too much? Maybe and maybe not. But it is about the only method shy of having a pro do it right the first time and not being able to be there in person to diagnose the condition myself. All of which is part of the do it yourself method, often times trial and error method based upon free advice offered and a do it yourself method. (IMO)

STOVES-RANGES-OVENS-BROILERS
For additional helpful information:
Reading this thread will provide information on how to diagnose and fix some problems (http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?threadid=159808)

Regards & Good Luck.

I've ordered the gas valve - hope that works. I'm starting to get some heat from the kitchen, and it's not from the oven. Something about not having an oven for Thanksgiving to cook the turkey in! :)

Additional information - the oven is a spark ignition, not a glow bar ignitor, so the information on the valve operation is probably not appropriate for this unit. Any other suggestions?

Hello: Keys

The appliance does not have a hot surface glow ignitor??? Instead has a spark ignitor, which lights a pilot flame, which in turn heats a safety element (fluid safety element (ASO) which than allows the gas valve to open and than the burner ignites! WOW! That changes the complete diagnostics process.

Lets start all over again.
The element the pilot flame heats is most likely the problem. Ovens often use one of two different types of safety elements.

One type is called a "Fluid Safety." A fluid safety element can be identified by having a metal flexible tube with a male threaded screw end.

The fluid safety element looks very much like a thermocouple but functions differently. A fluid safety element and a thermocouple are NOT the same parts. Nor are they interchangable.

The "Fluid Safety" uses mechanical movement and does not produce electrical energy like that of a thermocouple. It may contain either a fluid or a gaseous vapor.

The fluid safety element builds internal fluid or gaseous vapor pressure by expansion, when it is heated by the pilots flame. The internal pressure is then used to extend a built in internal pin.

The pin in turn pushes open the gas valves built in safety. It's the extended pin, from within the safety's element, that holds the ovens gas valve safety open. Then pin will remain extended, as long as the pilot remains on and the element remains hot.

The other type of safety element is called a "Flame Switch." This safety device also uses internal fluid or vapor pressure. However, it's pressure is used to keep closed a set of contact points within it's housing. The back side of this type of safety device will have two 120+ volt houseline electrical current wires attached to it.

The flame switch safety device can be identified by it's round diameter end. It is located on the opposite end of the bulb element. The round end is shinny and is about the size a of a silver dollar. It's body has two small sheet metal screws securing it to the ovens metal wall.

Whichever type your oven uses, it's purpose is identical. It's there to shut off main burner gas in the event the pilot light is not on. Without this device or a malfunction of this device, burner gas would be allowed to freely flow thru the burner without any source of ignition present.

Often times the pilot light will be on, yet the ovens burner fails to turn on. This may indicate a failure of the safety element.

Other possible reasons for a non operational safety element.

Non oven operation could mean the safety element is weak, <not building up enough internal pressure, due to a loss of fluid or vapor> or the pilot flame is either too small, too large or yellowed or hot enough to heat the element correctly or the element may not be correctly lined up with the pilot flame.

The pilot flame must not be yellowed. It must be cleared of all lint and dust. The pilot flame must be all blue and burning hot. The element must be directly lined up with the pilots flame.

Use a can of compressed air, same type used to clean computer keyboards, to blow out the lint and dust in the pilot assembly. The flexible plastic tube that comes with the can makes it easy to reach hard to reach places too.

Be sure to also blow out the intake air holes just prior to the pilot flame. They are usually located just after the tubing nut and b4 the pilot assembly too.

If all the above conditions are meet and the controls on the front panel are all correctly set, there is electrical power supplied to the appliance and the oven still fails to work, the element and or the gas valve could be defective. Either or both of these parts could be removed and tested at the local appliance parts store.

Cautions suggested prior to attempting repairs:

Be sure there is no house electric current supplied to the appliance prior to attempting any repairs. Failure to do so may result in electrical SHOCK!...:(

Be sure to turn off the gas to the appliance prior to any repair work or removal of the gas valve for testing or replacement. Failure to do this may cause a leak, fire or explosion!!!...:(

Suggestions:
Read the manufacturers online web site for product information, problem possibilities, causes and solving methods, part locations, disassembly, reassembly methods, repair proceedures and instructions, fuel type conversions, pictorials and schematics, which may be available online.

An excellent source for original replacement parts is your local retail appliance parts store. Appliance parts dealers test and carry replacement parts for all appliances. Parts dealers are listed in the phone book under appliances.

Retail parts dealers can also help determine what the possible problem may be. Bring the make, model and serial numbers if you stop in at the store. The info will help to determine the ignition system and possible problem causes.

CAUTION:
When working on appliances in general and especially ovens which use a flame switch, be absolutely sure and very positive the electrical power is turned off. Failure to do so will expose you to the possibility of electrical shock!

Any of these parts may not always be easy to replace for the do-it-yourself person. The parts aren't all that expensive. Tthe labor costs are often worth paying a professional to do the job.

Should parts be needed, the best source for orginal replacement parts is your local retail appliance parts store. You can locate the store in the phone book.

For those whom may not care to do this task, some natural gas utility companies offer this service.

STOVES-RANGES-OVENS-BROILERS
For additional helpful information:
Reading this thread will provide information on how to diagnose and fix some problems (http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?threadid=159808)