Lighting, Light Fixtures, Ceiling and Exhaust Fans - Kitchen lighting advice
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biver
10-30-05, 10:54 PM
I am planning a kitchen remodel, and I would like advice about the under cabinet and pendant lighting parts of this project. In particular, to go low-V or not to go low-V.
I will be doing the wiring. I am familiar with the basics of running NM cable for basic 120V applications. However, low voltage is new to me. I will tackle the learing curve if it will give me a better product. I am not interested in fads, just practicality and safety.
As far as under cabinet lighting goes, I see that xenon gives off good color light with less heat, and has a long bulb life. Halogen seems hotter and more intense, not really what I am looking for in undercab lighting (I will be cutting carrots, not inspecting diamonds for flaws or warming food with heat lamps). Flourescent has many of the same positive attributes as xenon, with perhaps a different color. As far as I am concerned, the question seems to be one of flourescent vs, xenon. Does this seem reasonable so far, or are my assumptions off (I have never seen any undercabinet lighting products, just reading this and other forums)?
Also, I do not like the color or starting flicker of my current flourescents, but I hear that new ones have better color, start instantly (Juno Direct Wire flourescents -> 3000K).
Any comments on this high level decision I have to make?
A little more technical: If I go with xenon, some units have built-in transformers; all flourescents seem to, also. These units feed off of 120V line. On the other hand, some xenon lights depend on remote xformers. I am concerned because I wonder if the builtin xformers would add to the cost and to the visible profile. I want it to be hidden, and not peeking out from under a light rail (I will be purchasing new cabinets with a light rail molding, possibly from a semicustom manufacturer such as Kraftmaid. Cost does not bother me as much as getting a good low profile unit that will not be seen.)
[Juno Direct Wire fourescents have a height of 1 1/16". this seems pretty low-profile to me, even lower than their lowV xenon (1 3/16)]
Also, I heard recommendations to mount the lights as far to the front as possible. This would mean running exposed cable. Does code currently require armored cable? If so, how is this done. I have never messed with AC. If not, what other options do I have?
(I noticed a short length or pre-wired armored cable in the big-box store...is this used here? If not, do I have to make the AC from scratch - purchase empty armored sheathing, whatever new cutting tools, whatever wire to fill the sheathing, etc?)
As far as pendant lighting goes, I am not really attracted to the low voltage units because I want a soft glow, not an intense beam. But, If I go low voltager on the undercab lighting, this will increase the chance of getting lowV pendants.
Help me overcome my ignorance
Aaron
I will be doing the wiring. I am familiar with the basics of running NM cable for basic 120V applications. However, low voltage is new to me. I will tackle the learing curve if it will give me a better product. I am not interested in fads, just practicality and safety.
As far as under cabinet lighting goes, I see that xenon gives off good color light with less heat, and has a long bulb life. Halogen seems hotter and more intense, not really what I am looking for in undercab lighting (I will be cutting carrots, not inspecting diamonds for flaws or warming food with heat lamps). Flourescent has many of the same positive attributes as xenon, with perhaps a different color. As far as I am concerned, the question seems to be one of flourescent vs, xenon. Does this seem reasonable so far, or are my assumptions off (I have never seen any undercabinet lighting products, just reading this and other forums)?
Also, I do not like the color or starting flicker of my current flourescents, but I hear that new ones have better color, start instantly (Juno Direct Wire flourescents -> 3000K).
Any comments on this high level decision I have to make?
A little more technical: If I go with xenon, some units have built-in transformers; all flourescents seem to, also. These units feed off of 120V line. On the other hand, some xenon lights depend on remote xformers. I am concerned because I wonder if the builtin xformers would add to the cost and to the visible profile. I want it to be hidden, and not peeking out from under a light rail (I will be purchasing new cabinets with a light rail molding, possibly from a semicustom manufacturer such as Kraftmaid. Cost does not bother me as much as getting a good low profile unit that will not be seen.)
[Juno Direct Wire fourescents have a height of 1 1/16". this seems pretty low-profile to me, even lower than their lowV xenon (1 3/16)]
Also, I heard recommendations to mount the lights as far to the front as possible. This would mean running exposed cable. Does code currently require armored cable? If so, how is this done. I have never messed with AC. If not, what other options do I have?
(I noticed a short length or pre-wired armored cable in the big-box store...is this used here? If not, do I have to make the AC from scratch - purchase empty armored sheathing, whatever new cutting tools, whatever wire to fill the sheathing, etc?)
As far as pendant lighting goes, I am not really attracted to the low voltage units because I want a soft glow, not an intense beam. But, If I go low voltager on the undercab lighting, this will increase the chance of getting lowV pendants.
Help me overcome my ignorance
Aaron
Cheyenps
10-31-05, 12:23 AM
As far as under cabinet lighting goes, I see that xenon gives off good color light with less heat, and has a long bulb life. Halogen seems hotter and more intense, not really what I am looking for in undercab lighting (I will be cutting carrots, not inspecting diamonds for flaws or warming food with heat lamps). Flourescent has many of the same positive attributes as xenon, with perhaps a different color. As far as I am concerned, the question seems to be one of flourescent vs, xenon. Does this seem reasonable so far, or are my assumptions off (I have never seen any undercabinet lighting products, just reading this and other forums)?
You're doing great so far.
Personally, I'd eliminate halogens from consideration for all of the reasons you describe. There are guys on here who really like them thoug; let them describe why they do and decide for yourself.
For me that leaves Xenon and fluorescent. I have never installed Xenon, so I have no real opinion other than to point out that if you are to use the type with the remote transformer you will have to deal with any number of code issues having to do with running low voltage wires in walls, to say nothing of having to hide transformers. Line voltage units don't have this problem.
I'll be the first to admit that I am a bit of an eletrical Luddite - I don't trust new things until they have been around for a while. For this reason alone, I go with fluorescent. It works, it's easy to install properly and it's not expensive. The newer styles with the electronic ballasts and color corrected lamps solve the problems of fluorescents of yore. They keep getting thinner and thinner too - the thinnest ones will hide nicely behind the shallowest of cabinet aprons.
Also, I heard recommendations to mount the lights as far to the front as possible. This would mean running exposed cable. Does code currently require armored cable? If so, how is this done. I have never messed with AC. If not, what other options do I have?
This is guilding the lily just a bit. I daresay you would not be able to tell the difference in light distribution if you moved the fixture all the way to the front of the cabinet or all the way aganst the back wall. Go for against the wall - it's considerably simpler.
The way we usually install these is to rough wire the end of each fixture run in romex and leave pigtails sticking through the walls at a height just a few inches HIGHER than the projected finish height of the bottom of the cabinets. The cabinet man then cuts a slot in the drywall when he installs the cabinets such that the romex pigtails stick through the wall at just the height of the bottom of the cabinet. We then connect the fixtures using the knockout in the back of th fixture and install the back of the fixture flush to the wall. Because all of the wire is in the wall, metal clad cable is not required. Fixtures in rows are wired end-to-end using chase nipples between the fixtures and THHN wire running from fixture to fixture inside of the fixture wireways.
(I noticed a short length or pre-wired armored cable in the big-box store...is this used here?
It can be - if you prefer a space between fixtures you can use that cable to run underneath the cabinets from fixture to fixture.
If not, do I have to make the AC from scratch - purchase empty armored sheathing, whatever new cutting tools, whatever wire to fill the sheathing, etc?)
It doesn't work quite that way. You buy the cable (it's not actually AC cable, it's MC cable) with the wire already in it. There is a special cuttter for it, but it is not terribly expensive. There are also special fittings and bushings required, but again they are no big deal. You could use this cable if you decide to set the fixtures to the front of the cabinets. It's rated for exposed use, and you can prewire for the fixtures using pigtails, just like you would with romex.
As far as pendant lighting goes, I am not really attracted to the low voltage units because I want a soft glow, not an intense beam. But, If I go low voltager on the undercab lighting, this will increase the chance of getting lowV pendants.
This is easier than you think. When you buy low voltage pendants, get the type with the little transformer that installs in the fixture box above each fixture. Rough in the fixture boxes with 120 volts, just as you would a 120 volt fixture. Use 4S boxes (4" square) with round rings (rather than round boxes) to allow plenty of room in the boxes for the transformers.
You're doing great so far.
Personally, I'd eliminate halogens from consideration for all of the reasons you describe. There are guys on here who really like them thoug; let them describe why they do and decide for yourself.
For me that leaves Xenon and fluorescent. I have never installed Xenon, so I have no real opinion other than to point out that if you are to use the type with the remote transformer you will have to deal with any number of code issues having to do with running low voltage wires in walls, to say nothing of having to hide transformers. Line voltage units don't have this problem.
I'll be the first to admit that I am a bit of an eletrical Luddite - I don't trust new things until they have been around for a while. For this reason alone, I go with fluorescent. It works, it's easy to install properly and it's not expensive. The newer styles with the electronic ballasts and color corrected lamps solve the problems of fluorescents of yore. They keep getting thinner and thinner too - the thinnest ones will hide nicely behind the shallowest of cabinet aprons.
Also, I heard recommendations to mount the lights as far to the front as possible. This would mean running exposed cable. Does code currently require armored cable? If so, how is this done. I have never messed with AC. If not, what other options do I have?
This is guilding the lily just a bit. I daresay you would not be able to tell the difference in light distribution if you moved the fixture all the way to the front of the cabinet or all the way aganst the back wall. Go for against the wall - it's considerably simpler.
The way we usually install these is to rough wire the end of each fixture run in romex and leave pigtails sticking through the walls at a height just a few inches HIGHER than the projected finish height of the bottom of the cabinets. The cabinet man then cuts a slot in the drywall when he installs the cabinets such that the romex pigtails stick through the wall at just the height of the bottom of the cabinet. We then connect the fixtures using the knockout in the back of th fixture and install the back of the fixture flush to the wall. Because all of the wire is in the wall, metal clad cable is not required. Fixtures in rows are wired end-to-end using chase nipples between the fixtures and THHN wire running from fixture to fixture inside of the fixture wireways.
(I noticed a short length or pre-wired armored cable in the big-box store...is this used here?
It can be - if you prefer a space between fixtures you can use that cable to run underneath the cabinets from fixture to fixture.
If not, do I have to make the AC from scratch - purchase empty armored sheathing, whatever new cutting tools, whatever wire to fill the sheathing, etc?)
It doesn't work quite that way. You buy the cable (it's not actually AC cable, it's MC cable) with the wire already in it. There is a special cuttter for it, but it is not terribly expensive. There are also special fittings and bushings required, but again they are no big deal. You could use this cable if you decide to set the fixtures to the front of the cabinets. It's rated for exposed use, and you can prewire for the fixtures using pigtails, just like you would with romex.
As far as pendant lighting goes, I am not really attracted to the low voltage units because I want a soft glow, not an intense beam. But, If I go low voltager on the undercab lighting, this will increase the chance of getting lowV pendants.
This is easier than you think. When you buy low voltage pendants, get the type with the little transformer that installs in the fixture box above each fixture. Rough in the fixture boxes with 120 volts, just as you would a 120 volt fixture. Use 4S boxes (4" square) with round rings (rather than round boxes) to allow plenty of room in the boxes for the transformers.
biver
10-31-05, 01:13 AM
Thanks. Very detailed advice that I will take to heart. I especially appreciate the advice about leaving the rough-in wiring a few inches above the wall cabinets' low line, and the pendant lights that include the xformer, and putting it in a square box..etc.
A few follow-up questions:
0) Glare:
The suggestion I heard about moving lighting to the front was based on countertop glare. Perhaps a glossy countertop would accentuate this glare. Have you any feedback from customers or other ideas along these lines (I ask because we're considering Silestone, which seems glossy).
1) Visibility:
Also, we plan to have a sit-at kitchen island with a good view of the undercab lighted area. I hope not to see the undercab lighting from this lower-than-usual vantage point. It strikes me that frontward lighting may be less visible while seated at the island. Thoughts, rumors, or customer feedback?
2) BX:
is BX actually required, if I decide to take the plunge and move the lighting forward to the front of the cabinet? One statement of your implied it, I just want confirmation.
If I went this route, could I run NM in the walls to a junction box, from which I might feed a short run of BX armored cable?
How does armored cable look coming out of the wall? I don't expect it to be very visible, but I am wondering if folks normally dress up the hole with trim or something. It could be coming out of ceramic tile or drywall, not sure. I guess I just need to be very careful when punching holes through tile.
3) You used the word "pigtail" when talking about the rough-in wiring (in context of NM and BX). Sorry, I have only heard that term when talking about twisting wires inside an electric outlet box....
By the contextI assume you just mean a short stretch of rough wiring sticking out of the wall, whether NM or BX. Right?
4) You use THHN wire to link the lights together within a wireway. THHN is another new term for me. Does it mean stranded?
You mention running it within "fixture wireways"...what type of lighting fixture are you talking about here? I assume the wireway-embedded THHN is an alternative to BX, but only if a particular product is designed for it and offers wireways in its product line. Correct?
A few follow-up questions:
0) Glare:
The suggestion I heard about moving lighting to the front was based on countertop glare. Perhaps a glossy countertop would accentuate this glare. Have you any feedback from customers or other ideas along these lines (I ask because we're considering Silestone, which seems glossy).
1) Visibility:
Also, we plan to have a sit-at kitchen island with a good view of the undercab lighted area. I hope not to see the undercab lighting from this lower-than-usual vantage point. It strikes me that frontward lighting may be less visible while seated at the island. Thoughts, rumors, or customer feedback?
2) BX:
is BX actually required, if I decide to take the plunge and move the lighting forward to the front of the cabinet? One statement of your implied it, I just want confirmation.
If I went this route, could I run NM in the walls to a junction box, from which I might feed a short run of BX armored cable?
How does armored cable look coming out of the wall? I don't expect it to be very visible, but I am wondering if folks normally dress up the hole with trim or something. It could be coming out of ceramic tile or drywall, not sure. I guess I just need to be very careful when punching holes through tile.
3) You used the word "pigtail" when talking about the rough-in wiring (in context of NM and BX). Sorry, I have only heard that term when talking about twisting wires inside an electric outlet box....
By the contextI assume you just mean a short stretch of rough wiring sticking out of the wall, whether NM or BX. Right?
4) You use THHN wire to link the lights together within a wireway. THHN is another new term for me. Does it mean stranded?
You mention running it within "fixture wireways"...what type of lighting fixture are you talking about here? I assume the wireway-embedded THHN is an alternative to BX, but only if a particular product is designed for it and offers wireways in its product line. Correct?
Cheyenps
10-31-05, 08:05 AM
2) BX:is BX actually required, if I decide to take the plunge and move the lighting forward to the front of the cabinet? One statement of your implied it, I just want confirmation.
If I went this route, could I run NM in the walls to a junction box, from which I might feed a short run of BX armored cable?
How does armored cable look coming out of the wall? I don't expect it to be very visible, but I am wondering if folks normally dress up the hole with trim or something. It could be coming out of ceramic tile or drywall, not sure. I guess I just need to be very careful when punching holes through tile.
It's not BX, it's MC cable. BX is not allowed any more in most locales because it doesn't have a green wire ground. HD and Lowes sell it - you can check it out there.
If you keep it tight to the underside of the cabinet you will not be able to see it. You don't want a junction box, you want to feed in and out of the fluorescent fixtures like you do with romex. No trim on the hole either - keep it up high and cut the wall tightly and you will never see it
3) You used the word "pigtail" when talking about the rough-in wiring (in context of NM and BX). Sorry, I have only heard that term when talking about twisting wires inside an electric outlet box....By the contextI assume you just mean a short stretch of rough wiring sticking out of the wall, whether NM or BX. Right?
Exactly. Leave about 18" sticking out of the wall in case you decide to scoot one of 'em over a bit. You can always trim it; lengthening it requires a box (which you don't want).
4) You use THHN wire to link the lights together within a wireway. THHN is another new term for me. Does it mean stranded?
THHN is plain-old wire. Stranded or solid. They sell it on rolls at Home Depot too - check it out there.
You mention running it within "fixture wireways"...what type of lighting fixture are you talking about here? I assume the wireway-embedded THHN is an alternative to BX, but only if a particular product is designed for it and offers wireways in its product line. Correct?
No - it's easier than that. It's not enbedded - you install it. If you take apart a fluorescent under cabinet fixture (which you will have to do to wire it) you will see that there is a channel that runs all the way along the back. This channel has the ballast in it. Look at the ends of the fixture and you will see knockouts to run wires in and out of this channel.
On installation day, you take the covers off of all of the fixtures, mount them under the cabinets with nipples between them, hook the romex or MC cable to the first one and then install wire from fixture to fixture - sticking it up in to the channel where the ballast is as you go.
If I went this route, could I run NM in the walls to a junction box, from which I might feed a short run of BX armored cable?
How does armored cable look coming out of the wall? I don't expect it to be very visible, but I am wondering if folks normally dress up the hole with trim or something. It could be coming out of ceramic tile or drywall, not sure. I guess I just need to be very careful when punching holes through tile.
It's not BX, it's MC cable. BX is not allowed any more in most locales because it doesn't have a green wire ground. HD and Lowes sell it - you can check it out there.
If you keep it tight to the underside of the cabinet you will not be able to see it. You don't want a junction box, you want to feed in and out of the fluorescent fixtures like you do with romex. No trim on the hole either - keep it up high and cut the wall tightly and you will never see it
3) You used the word "pigtail" when talking about the rough-in wiring (in context of NM and BX). Sorry, I have only heard that term when talking about twisting wires inside an electric outlet box....By the contextI assume you just mean a short stretch of rough wiring sticking out of the wall, whether NM or BX. Right?
Exactly. Leave about 18" sticking out of the wall in case you decide to scoot one of 'em over a bit. You can always trim it; lengthening it requires a box (which you don't want).
4) You use THHN wire to link the lights together within a wireway. THHN is another new term for me. Does it mean stranded?
THHN is plain-old wire. Stranded or solid. They sell it on rolls at Home Depot too - check it out there.
You mention running it within "fixture wireways"...what type of lighting fixture are you talking about here? I assume the wireway-embedded THHN is an alternative to BX, but only if a particular product is designed for it and offers wireways in its product line. Correct?
No - it's easier than that. It's not enbedded - you install it. If you take apart a fluorescent under cabinet fixture (which you will have to do to wire it) you will see that there is a channel that runs all the way along the back. This channel has the ballast in it. Look at the ends of the fixture and you will see knockouts to run wires in and out of this channel.
On installation day, you take the covers off of all of the fixtures, mount them under the cabinets with nipples between them, hook the romex or MC cable to the first one and then install wire from fixture to fixture - sticking it up in to the channel where the ballast is as you go.