Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - Help with a Heat pump/ductwork quote

Hi, We are going to get our hear/air systems replaced and have talked to two different companies so far. We have not done the Manuel J load that I have read about but would like some simple advice. Our house is 2 stories built in mid 80's. We were looking to replace both systems Just straight air/gas heat in our house. Because we have an extra room upstairs that was added above the garage (what used to be part of the attic--it is a considerably sized room) both people have recommended a 2.5 ton upstairs and then a 2 ton downstairs. Both people who have looked at our ductwork have suggested all new ductwork b/c it winds and winds and was done rather poorly years ago. Oh we are in Birmingham, Al so obviously need good airs. So now on to the quote we got.

One quote for american standard I got today seems rather high and here is the first. I am still waiting on another quote and then for another guy to come out and look. I did write the guy back and ask him to break down everything since it was just this general quote.

I recommend the following systems for your house. Up sizing the upstairs to a 2.5ton and the down stairs to remain a 2ton. The SEER will be 12 and it will include a heat pump with gas heat backup.

12 SEER $12,878.00

12 SEER variable speed $14,295.00

14 SEER variable speed $16,928.00

These prices also includes new trunkline, branch runs, thermostats, and 10 year parts and labor.

Does this not seem high? I didn't think jumping from a 12 to 14 seer would make that big of a price difference.

The other guy who has come out and looked at our stuff sells carrier mainly and swears by them but he will sell trane so we are getting a quote from him as well which includes trane. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks

Is that per system or for both?? If it's for both it don't look bad at all.

As for the 13 vs the 14 SEER ask them to do a savings comparison using your utility rates and see what the payback would be.

Yes it is for both. We have never had anything like this done at all, so it just seems like a ton of money to us. Thanks

Down there in Al and if you are going to stay in the home 10 years or more . Go for the seer 14 or on up to the seer 16. With the seer 16 you also get a HSPF of 10.55 for the heat pump side. Dont forget that you are looking at a heat and cool set up. Trane is good and with all new you can get a10 year warranty on it all.

ED ;)

We were definitely thinking 14 seer at least. Really wanted the 16 seer but the extra $2500 is enough to kill us right now. Is it that big of a jump really when you go from 14 to 16 in cost? I was just curious. Also, I can't remember if I have read this before but will a straight A/C and just gas heater (no heat pump) work longer in the long run? More years? We plan to be in this house a long time otherwise we wouldn't spend a lot. I know I have ready about the many pros to a heat pump, but I just want it to last. Also I was wondering, do we really need the gas backup? It really doesn't get that cold here in Birmingham. We might have some nights it goes down into the mid to late 20's but that isn't really the norm. Just trying to figure this all out since we have never spent this much in our lives. We always buy used cars, etc. Thanks so much for the input.

bugabiga

Yes, if a heat pump is your primary method of both heating and cooling, then its average life is not as long as a straight AC/gas furnace system. However, neither should a heat pump system cost as much. You live in the Southeast and therefore you have a mild winter climate. Unless you just want the gas heat backup, I would forget that and just go for a high eff heat pump with var speed air handler. Nat Gas is no longer a value fuel for winter heating purposes. Check your utilities both electric and nat gas. I think you will be surprised at what you find. I would look for a heat pump system with a SEER rating of at least 14 for cooling and a HSPF rating of at least 9 for heating. Do yourself a favor and make the fuel analysis.

My Opinion.
Good LucK!

Go to http://www.warmair.net and compare fuel cost for where you are. About all we sell now are heatpumps here in the center of Missouri. beats oil and LP.

ED ;)

Ok, I have looked at that website for comparing fuel costs but have been clueless as to come up with the rate. I know gas here just went up 35% for sure and our last gas bill during the summer when all that uses it is the water heater was for $33.18 with 18 (100's of cubic feet used). This gas bill does not reflect the 35 % increase. Then our electric bill was 2285 used with our bill being $192.30. Nothing here uses oil or propane to my knowledge. And I don't have a clue as to what our heat pump efficiency would be nor our natural gas burner which you need to know as well.

So did ya'll say no as to the gas backup with the heat pump or not? And was it normal to jump $2500 when going from 14 to 16 seer? Oh and the carrier dude has given us his quote is emphatic that we get the new freon. Is this necessary b/c I don't think american standard has many out with the new freon. Thanks so much. My husband has left me to research this since I am more the detailed of the two of us. Thanks

bugabiga

First of all, $2500 for an upgrade in a heat pump from 14-16 SEER-2 systems may be a little high but probably close when considering a major brand. With a project like yours, you should shop around and get several different quotes from different dealers.

Now to the energy comparison. You need to find out the rated HSPF for the size Heat Pump you are considering purchasing. Divide the HSPF by 3.4 and this will give you your COP efficiency. Call your electric utility and ask them what your rate per KW/hr would be if you were heating all electric with a heat pump. Then call your nat gas utility and get your price per cu ft. They may give this to you by the therm. If so, divide the therm price by 100. You will need to know the AFUE rating of the gas furnace you are looking at as well.Now you are ready to punch the numbers into the fuel calculator for comparison. Very easy to do. When checking with your utilities, ask if they have any special incentive programs that will provide rebates for upgrading equipment. Forget oil and propane-you are not interested.

If your electric rate is close to $.08/KW/HR or less, then I would forget the nat gas backup. Southern Company is your electric utility? It is my opinion that electric rates will be stable compared to nat gas rates as long as your electric utility is not heavily dependent upon nat gas fired electric generating plants.Find out from your utility.

Carrier promotes and pushes the new refrigerant they call Puron-also known as R-410a. Do not purchase AC or Heat Pump equipment based on refrigerant-R-22 or R-410a is OK. Just don't pay more for R-410a-not worth it.

I am not a dealer so I have no interest other than to say that I prefer Am Std or Trane Heat Pumps over Carrier.

Make certain you get a Manual J heat/cool load calcualtion in writing from your dealer. Review it carefully with the dealer. This a measure of protection both for the homeowner and dealer against a mistake.Get references on the dealers you are considering. And find out their qualifications and experience for good ductwork design.

My opinion.
Good LucK!

Carrier promotes and pushes the new refrigerant they call Puron-also known as R-410a. Do not purchase AC or Heat Pump equipment based on refrigerant-R-22 or R-410a is OK. Just don't pay more for R-410a-not worth it. Carrier promotes and pushes the new refrigerant they call Puron-also known as R-410a. Do not purchase AC or Heat Pump equipment based on refrigerant-R-22 or R-410a is OK. Just don't pay more for R-410a-not worth it.

Like to add to Tiger here. R 410a cost is very high. Say you have a leak and more than half the freon gets out. Then all the rest has to come out and all new freon R410a put in as it is a mix of freons . They can still make freon R22 till the year 2030. Lets hope your new unit last that long.

ED :thinker:

Ed is correct about the refrigerant. R-410a is more expensive-now. But as
R-22 is slowly phased out, market forces more than likely will make it more expensive and R-410a will more than likely come down in price as it becomes the standard. Of course at this point in time more dealers are comfortable in working with R-22 than R-410a but this will change with time.

We actually have great references for the American Standard guy who has given us the original quote. He is thorough and has told me how he would do the ductwork which is as the other did as well. But his rep is good and I trust him. I did the fuel analysis after calling the electric place (southern co.) and the gas place. It came to heat pump .68 and then gas 2.26. So there isn't really any question as to the value of the heat pump. The only question I have is that this guy with american standard feels strongly that we need one level attached to a gas furnace (piggyback) b/c he was talking we would need a big generator to run it otherwise (am assuming in a power outage). My question is we haven't had snow here in 3 years no ice -- there is the chance. 12 years ago we got a foot of snow but that is once every century. The 17,000 quote is really beyond our maximum capacity and that is for only the 14 seer not 16. But that includes all new ductwork, trunk, basically everything new and backup gas. If we cut out the gas and go up to a 16 seer package how would that be? I guess he is concerned b/c we are a young family 3 1/2 kids, blah blah blah. Any thoughts. Thanks again for the help doing that calculation. I would have never figured it out.

The only question I have is that this guy with american standard feels strongly that we need one level attached to a gas furnace (piggyback) b/c he was talking we would need a big generator to run it otherwise (am assuming in a power outage).

I am not clear what you mean here. In the event of a power outage, you would need a gas generator to power either a heat pump with strip heat or a gas furnace(for electric blower, circuitry,etc). Not so with gas logs. Your Am Std rep may be pulling your leg. If true, I would send him packing.

?????
:(