Air Conditioning Repair Costs & Diagnosis - Toronto. Help!

[finary]

I have been having problems with my air conditioning system for quite some time.

The setup:
- Unit is only 5 years old, new townhouse complex
- Unit is outside on my patio, leveled and unobstructed
- Air exchanger is in the basement
- Filter is changed regularly (was just changed 2 weeks ago)
- 2 floor (basement and main floor) 1400 sqft townhouse
- Not sure what the size of my AC unit is.. im sure you guys want to know either BTU's or tonnes? It seems pretty standard, everyone in my area has the same looking one. Some of them say PAYNE on the top (orange sticker)
- Last serviced in 2003
- copper line going into my air exchanger is cold and wet, but its not that big... dont know where the smaller line is.. will have to look closer

Problem description:
It just can't keep my house cool enough... during moderate temperatures my house is around 24-25 degrees, and these days with 30+ degree temperatures outside my house is 29C inside!!

I have tried several different things..
- bought a programmable thermostat
- tried different programs, settings, shutting it off and on during certain times of the day
- tried letting it run constantly to cool to 22C

When it IS working, the air coming out is barely cool, not COLD. If I leave it running for a period of time eventually HOT air will start coming out of the vents and I need to shut it off for a half hour or so before turning it back on.

After a conversation with a technician, he belives my freon levels are low and that there could be a leak.

He quoted me:
Service call: $115+tax
Parts & Maint (freon): $600-700 +tax (Canadian dollars of course)

This seems like quite a bit of money to have a unit repaired.. especially one so new.

Is this reasonable for the Toronto area? Or should I shop around? I really need someone to help me out here.. I feel like im being ripped off!

Thanks in advance,

Kevin

[TigerDunes]

finary

Questions and observations.

What size is your AC condenser?
What size is your townhouse-sq footage? Single level?
When was last time AC system was serviced?
Is evaporator coil clean?
Is your outside AC condensor compressor and condensor fan operating?
If so, is your big copper line cold and wet, small copper line warm?
How long have you lived in this townhouse and has it always been difficult to cool? Or is this your first summer season?

Run from this HVAC tech-he is trying to rip you off!

Post back when you can. Sorry for your AC trouble.

:(

[finary]

How do I find out what size my AC condensor is?
Townhouse is 1400sqft, 2 levels (basement + main floor)
Where is the evaporator coil? Is it that black tube that runs from the centre of the AC unit to the wall of the AC unit outside? If so, it is clean.
The outside AC condensor compressor and condensor fan are operating. (they'd have to be to get the air somewhat cool, right?)

Big copper line is cold and wet, will have to check the smaller one when I get home, didn't notice it...
I've lived here for 4 years, it's 5 years old. It has never cooled very well but this summer is especially bad due to higher temperatures and humidity. (plus I think the AC unit has gotten worse!)

I talked to my neighbor and she said that MOST of the units had problems when they were originally installed. I know the previous owner did NOT get anything fixed - so now it's off warrenty and I have to foot the bill. Her house which is next to mine is like 21-22 degrees inside... so nice and cool.

So I *AM* getting ripped off?? What should I expect to pay to fix this type of problem (if it is indeed a freon leak/level problem)

Kevin

[finary]

The above quote was with ***** (mississauga)

I just called a company at Random (*****- also mississauga)
And they quoted me $70 for the service call and 'about' $300 for the freon refill/repair.

What a difference!

Is there anything I should look out for? Such a huge difference in price worries me.... am I getting totally ripped off by the first guy or shoddy service from the second guy?

Advice please...

[TigerDunes]

finary,

The size of your outside AC condensor is usually indicated on the dataplate which should be on your unit. It should give you name of brand, model number, ser number, and date of manufacture.

When you say 1400 sq ft, this is conditioned living space with ductwork delivering AC or heat to this area both upstairs and basement?

Your evaporator coil will either be inside your air handler or perhaps attached to a gas furnace. What type of heat do you have?

Check again the AC outside condensor and verify that compressor and fan are both operating and that big copper line is cold and wet and small copper line is warm.

If it is a freon leak, repair costs can vary by region. My guess is that locating leak, repairing leak, evacuating and recharging, add freon should be in neighborhood of $150-$200 US $$$ barring any special problem. In the US it is called a "gas and go". Leak though should be located and repaired or else problem will resurface.

:)

[finary]

Hello,
I took some pictures of the information panels both inside the unit and on the outside of the unit. I hope this helps!

http://photos.blacklight.ca/ac

1400sqft... its probably a little less than that. let's say 1300 sqft, which includes the following rooms that have central air vents: upstairs bathroom, upstairs master bedroom, upstairs 2nd bedroom, upstairs kitchen, upstairs livingroom, downstairs bathroom, downstairs den.

There are 12 vents in total (8 upstairs, 4 downstairs)

Would the big copper line be insulated? There was one big line bundled with the small copper line, the big line had plastic/foam around it so I couldnt tell if it was cool. The small line was warm until I followed it into the side of the metal air exhanger, it was cool and wet once it made contact with the side of the exhanger.

Thanks for your help so far, let me know if you need anything else..
I'd like to make a decision today in regards to which company I select to perform the repair work. (the cheaper one can come today after work, and the more expensive one can come tomorrow after work) I might shop around for a 3rd and 4th to see more price variations.

Kevin

[mattison]

I may be wrong but it apears that your unit is a 1.5 ton. Seems small for 1400 sq ft.

Ask your neighbors who they use and trust and have this thing looked at. The larger copper line should be insulated and it is the one that should be cold and wet the other smaller one should be slightly warm to the touch.

Do you ever hose the outdoor units coil out good??

[finary]

Where do I check the tonnage?

I don't even have a hose nor a hookup for the house. I think the maintenance people are suppose to clean leaves and debris from it once a year... it seemed relatively clean when I looked at it this morning - although i dont know how clean it has to be to work properly.

[finary]

Well I've made my decision...

I decided to go with the highest quote I receied - and here's why:

1) they have loads of experience working on units in my development over the past few years (were on contract from my previous property manager)
2) they do not do hourly rates - it is a set price of $636 to find and fix any freon leaks and basically do anything possible to get my a/c working top notch.

they guaranteed to have it working 100% before the guy leaves and I won't have to worry about getting nickel and dimed for $90/hr labour or anything like that...

While the other $200-400 quotes sounded nice... I worry that they would just do a 'gas and go' and not even fix the root cause, then I'd have to have them out again on my dime to fix it again...

*crosses fingers*

wish me luck! he's coming tomorrow at 4pm.

[mattison]

Well, let us know what the outcome is. If they do most of the work there then they couldn't be 1/2 bad.

[finary]

So it's Friday at 3:30pm... I had switched shifts with another employee and also worked through my lunch so I could leave at this time and RUSH home for 4pm to meet the Service guy.

I get home around 4, even though the traffic was pretty heavy and proceed to sit around my house and wait... It's now 5pm, 1 hour late. I finally receive a call from the office saying that the Service guy is going to be an hour to hour and a half late. (ontop of the hour he is already late)

I told them this was unacceptable, that I had been waiting since 4pm and had made special arrangements just to be home at that time. I was also hosting a large birthday/dinner party at a downtown restaurant for my gf's birthday and had to be out of the house no later than 7:45pm.

She said there was nothing she could do, and let me go.
I called back and now the office was closed, there was nobody to speak to. I attempted to connect to someone through the dial by name directory and luckily I got Vic (the ex-service guy who I had quite a lovely and informative chat with just days ago)

He was VERY helpful and even radio'd the service guy to find out what the hell was going on and why he was so late, etc... He offered to have the service guy come in Saturday morning at 8:30am if he wasn't able to make it on the Friday.

He never made it Friday at all, so he woke me up at 8:30am on Saturday. Fine. I needed to get it fixed and couldn't afford to switch any more shifts the next week to bend to their schedule.
He spent a good hour and a half there, checking over everything when he finall comes upstairs and says "Everything looks okay, I can't find anything wrong with the system, it's functioning correctly."

I proceed to remind him how it is currently 26 degrees inside my house - at 8:30am and how in the afternoon if it's hot it may climb to 29 degrees. He said he turned off some valves that have to do with my heating. That these valves lead into my air exchanger and when I turn on hot water, it's passed through the air exchanger and could warm up the air that is being cooled and passed throughout the house.

This sounded like semi-bull**** as I'm not home all day and there is no hot water on so how could that affect the cooling of my house?

He said to leave my thermostat at 22 degrees and "let it work it's magic"... I told him serveral times that this thing HAS NO MAGIC... I've let it run constantly before for days on end and it doesn't get cooled. After arguing a while longer I finally said fine and signed the bill and let him leave.

Oh, the bill... yes... Remember how I was promised a $115 service call to "take care of everything" (aside from major repairs such as a freon leak)
Well I was charged $115 + $99 (labour) + tax... came out to $230+
I was tired and still half asleep (from being woken up by the guy) and didn't want to argue any longer so I signed it and off he went...
(And all this after the sales woman made it clear that they and I quote "do not do hourly rates" the service call charge will take care of everything that isn't a major repair - and even major repairs are quoted a set price - not by the hour.)

Before parting he mentioned that if it still isn't working that I may have to have my TXV valve replaced and the freon drained and refilled at a tune of an ADDITIONAL $800+...

It's now Monday and my house has still not gone below 25 degrees in the morning and 26-29 degrees in the afternoon.

I would have had more fun burning $230.... What a waste.


Advice anyone?

[TigerDunes]

I talked to my neighbor and she said that MOST of the units had problems when they were originally installed. I know the previous owner did NOT get anything fixed - so now it's off warrenty and I have to foot the bill. Her house which is next to mine is like 21-22 degrees inside... so nice and cool.
Kevin

Yes, I believe you were ripped off. What exactly did tech check? Freon charge readings,evaporator coil clean, condensor coil clean ,any temp readings at supply vent?

You mentioned that neighbor's home is nice and cool. Is it similar size to your home? If so, what size is her AC condensor?

You can always get another opinion if you do not have confidence in recent tech's visit but without further info, I have to lean toward an undersized AC system for your home.

Good Luck!

[finary]

He suppposedly checked 'everything'... he was there for quite a while. I am not technical enough to tell you everything he checked but he seemed to do a thorough job. He said that the freon levels/pressure is normal, the unit is operating fine, there is a 10 degree temperature drop between the air coming into the system and going out....

Not only is my neighbors home a similar size - it is the EXACT model and exact square footage and layout. (townhouse complex) this is why I use it to compare against my own home... mine should function just as well as hers does.



Update: I called the company back and spoke to a Service Manager. He apologized for the missed appointment and refunded my $99 labour charge as he agreed that I shouldn't have been charged that for just the diagnosis.

I have tentatively made another appointment for thursday to get the TXV valve replaced. The manager mentioned that they replaced 10 or 12 of them in my development and that solved the problem for all but one of the units. He still said this will cost between $700-800...
I asked him "what if this doesn't fix the problem?" and he assured me that I wouldn't have to pay for the repairs if they don't fix the problem.

Yikes.. *crosses fingers*

[TigerDunes]

He said that the freon levels/pressure is normal, the unit is operating fine, there is a 10 degree temperature drop between the air coming into the system and going out....

Not only is my neighbors home a similar size - it is the EXACT model and exact square footage and layout. (townhouse complex) this is why I use it to compare against my own home... mine should function just as well as hers does.

Update: I called the company back and spoke to a Service Manager. He apologized for the missed appointment and refunded my $99 labour charge as he agreed that I shouldn't have been charged that for just the diagnosis.

Yikes.. *crosses fingers*

Again what size AC system does your neighbor have?

When you say 10 DEG drop, is that fahrenheit-it must be and that is way below a good drop. Should be 16-20 DEG FAH. This needs to be rechecked. Freon charge needs to be rechecked along with evaporator coil and I would stick next to tech like glue while he goes over his checklist!

Good Luck!

[finary]

Did you check the pictures I posted above? I hope they may contain information in regards to the size of our units. (my neighbor and I have the exact same units)

Here is the link again:

http://photos.blacklight.ca/ac

I believe the unit is 1.5 tons, if that is what you are looking for.. if not you might be able to find the info on the above pictures I took of the outside unit's labels.

I assume that being in Canada he was speaking about Celcius, in which case 10 degrees seems alright.

The Service Manager is sending out a more experienced Tech on thursday to do the TXV Valve, while he is there I am going to watch over his every move and ask him as many questions as possible - maybe the 1st guy missed something.

[mattison]

He had to be talking fahrenheit on the split since 10º c would be 50º f. So regardless 10ºf split is not enough and it to me sounds like these guys are just guessing. Who does your neighbor use for their hvac.

[finary]

I don't think you are figuring out the Celcius to Farenheit conversion properly.

Here's a simple example...

Let's say the air coming into the system is 30C (86F)
now the system cools the air by 10C we now have:

20C (68F)

86F - 68F = 18F drop in temperature which is exactly within range of your 16-20F drop

I have the receipt at home (forgot to grab it this morning) which outlines everything the technician checked, and also his notes and pressure readings. I'll try to remember to transcribe it into a post tonight or tomorrow morning - that will be much more useful than me guessing at what he did :)

[finary]

Now looking at the receipt - I stand corrected. It looks like he was jotting everything down in Farenheit! Argh...

Here are the notes...

-- Checked operation suction line pressure @ 64 PSI
-- Liquid Line @ 225 PSI
-- Outside temp 80F
-- OT >> 10F
-- 12F of super lvat (couldn't read the writing here, not sure what this is)
-- Required converted suction line temp 38F --- Actual Temp 50F

Then there are checkmarks on a diagram for:
- Electrical connections
- check pressure
- filter system
- check / align pulleys
- condensate drain & trap

diagnostic - $115.00
Labour - $99.00 + tax
Total - $228.98

Any experts here to interpret this?

[finary]

Anyone?

The other tech is coming today between 1 and 2... meh

[finary]

Well he came, and was an hour and a half late... but better than not coming at all like last time.

He cleaned the coil and replaced a piston instead of replacing the TXV Valve.
So it was $250 + $18 for the piston + tax...

He said he got a "much better pressure" and that this would equate to an additional 4F temperature drop.. so now I'm getting 14F temperature drop.

He was quite disgruntled and blamed everything else on how my system was designed and set up... said that it "wasn't designed properly" and that I don't have enough vents in my house (I have 13, he said I should have 15) and also that I was missing an air intake in the master bedroom. (currently there is one in the livingroom and one in the downstairs den)

He advised me to put plastic wrap over the downstairs den air intake so that the only air the system would be taking in would be the hotter upstairs air... he said that it would improve the performance if the system is constantly taking the hot air out of the upstairs livingroom and replacing it with cooled air from the vents.

Does this sound logical? Do you think it will help?

I plastic wrapped the vent last night and the system has been running constantly ever since. It was 27 degrees celcius in my livingroom last night, and this morning when I woke up it was down to the usual 25... but no lower. I'm going to give it a couple days to cool the house down... *fingers crossed*

[hvac01453]

Unless you have 12" insulated walls that 1.5ton will never cool that space. You should be looking at 3 to 3.5 tons. Maybe your neighbor isn't an end apartment. I have a 1.5 ton doing my upstairs 960sq ft and R22 walls R38 ceiling Low E glass and shades, My ductwork is square metal duct to reduce turbulance and all buttered joints and it takes all day to get it to 73F from 85F but its dry air. It will hold it there but runs long and hard. I have a window unit thats the same size so keep that in mind, a 1.5 ton unit is puny and only good for one floor assuming this is 1/2 of your 1400 sq ft, it would be about right to do the upstairs only. You need to get something like a Sanyo ductless to help take care of the extra load or rip the old one out and do it right. The tech was right, Poor design, duct is most likely originally designed for one floor only, and the previous home owner kept adding new drops as they finished the downstairs....