Custom shower w/ built in seating?

[thewink]

I'm looking to create a shower with a seat - i will tile the entire shower - my question is 'Can I simply frame with 2x4's and drywall the seat?' (it'll be about 30" high and 30-36" deep on the opposite side from the faucet)

Thanks,
Mark

[Doug Aleshire]

thewink,

It is not advisable to use anything other than cement board here. You can use 2x4 for the frame and 1/2" plywood. Then apply a pan liner over all of this. Then apply your cement board. Do not use drywall of any type here.

Here are some pictures of one of my recent jobs. This should help.

http://dougaphs.smugmug.com/gallery/285873/1/11349954

Good Luck!

[thewink]

Very nice Doug - thanks for the pics - I'll definitely use them for reference as I proceed with my project.

Best,
Mark

[Doug Aleshire]

Mark,

You're very welcome. If you need more, I can come up with them. I still have many in my photo program that need to be displayed. The pictures always help when the words may not explain it all properly.

Good Luck!

[Tilebri]

I'm trying to figure out where to start, so I will start with the related plumbing code concerning shower pan construction.
Uniform Plumbing Code related to shower pan construction.

"412. 8 When the construction of on-site built-up shower receptors is
Permitted by the Administrative Authority, one of the following means shall
Be employed:
(1) Shower receptors built directly on the ground:
Shower receptors built directly on the ground shall be watertight and shall
Be constructed from approved type dense, non-absorbent and non-corrosive
Materials. Each such receptor shall be adequately reinforced, shall be
Provided with an approved flanged floor drain designed to make a watertight
Joint in the floor, and shall have smooth, impervious, and durable surfaces.
(2) Shower receptors built above ground:
When shower receptors are built above ground the sub-floor and rough side of
Walls to a height of not less than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of
The finished dam or threshold shall be first lined with sheet plastic*,
Lead* or copper* or shall be lined with other durable and watertight
Materials.
All lining materials shall be pitched one-quarter (1/4) inch per foot
(20. 9 mm/m) to weep holes in the subdrain of a smooth and solidly formed
Sub-base. All such lining materials shall extend upward on the rough jambs
Of the shower opening to a point no less
Than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of the finished dam or threshold
And shall extend outward over the top of the rough threshold and be turned
Over and fastened on the outside face of both the rough threshold and the
Jambs.
Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may be built-up on the job site
Of not less than three (3) layers of standard grade fifteen (15) pound (6.8
Kg) asphalt impregnated roofing felt. The bottom layer shall be fitted to
The formed sub-base and each succeeding layer thoroughly hot mopped to that
Below. All corners shall be carefully fitted and shall be made strong and
Watertight by folding or lapping, and each corner shall be reinforced with
Suitable webbing hot-mopped in place. All folds, laps, and reinforcing
Webbing shall extend at least four (4) inches (102 mm) in all directions
From the corner and all webbing shall be of approved type and mesh,
Producing a tensile strength of not less than fifty (50) psi (344. 5 kPa) in
Either direction. Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may also consist
Of multi-layers of other approved equivalent materials suitably reinforced
And carefully fitted in place on the job site as elsewhere required in this
Section.
Linings shall be properly recessed and fastened to approved backing so
As not to occupy the space required for the wall covering and shall not be
Nailed or perforated at any point which may be less than one (1) inch (25.4
Mm) above the finished dam or threshold. An approved type sub-drain shall be
Installed with every shower sub-pan or lining. Each such sub-drain shall be
Of the type that sets flush with the sub-base and shall be equipped with a
Clamping ring or other device to make a tight connection between the lining
And the drain. The sub-drain shall have weep holes into the waste line. The
Weep holes located in the subdrain clamping ring shall be protected from
Clogging.

So now the problems I see with this pan. First, it looked as though there was no preslope under the liner. This causes water in the setting bed to remain in the setting bed as opposed to allowing the setting bed to dry out. This results in a happy home for all the things you don't want living and growing in your shower. Second, the liner came directly up the studs, they did not look to be notched. The liner cannot be run up the studs because the the wall can put enough stress on the liner to cause tears. In this case, the liner was also penetrated with fasteners not only below the 1" above curb height, but even below the mud base where the greenboard was fastened. hello leaky shower . I won't even tough the greenboard issue. It won't be allowed as a tile backer in wet ares anywhere by code in 2006, whereas it is currently disallowed by many local codes. Greenboard is not reccomended in steam shower installation, let alone any shower installation by any tile trade organization, nor is it suggested for use by it's manufacturer, USG. Steam showers are supposed to be topically waterproofed over the backer board as well, with the ceiling pitched, though the pictures do not show whether or not it was, so on that I won't comment. Cement boards on horizontal surfaces are supposed to be set in a bed of thinset, to evenly support the backer. Not easy to do as air would get trapped under the liner. On that issue, water will get through the grout, through the thinset, into the backer, down the nails and into the osb. Not a good thing to happen. Osb will swell over time when exposed to water. There was no water proofing evident on the niche either. The niche, the seat and the entire area around it including all changes in plane should have been waterproofed with a topical treatment and not reliance on a pvc membrane. This is because in a shower, there should be a moisture retarder of 15 lb roofing felt or 4-6 mil poly over the studs. Since you would not be able to install it properly over the variations in the surface, topical waterproofing is required in those areas instead of a moisture retarder behind the backer. Enough of the rant, tell us what the subfloor is, if it is already plumbed for the drain with 2" and not 1 1/2" which would have been used for a tub, whether or not it will be along any exterior walls as this will affect the type of insulation you use, etc, etc. We'll get you through it. And concerning that 30" high bench, that's really tall. Measure from the ground to your knee. That's where the height will be comfortable for sitting, or for a woman to rest her foot to shave her legs. 30" or higher would be a good place for shelves or niches.

[Doug Aleshire]

Tilebri,

Points noted. First off - I don't build em. The subcontractor that did this one came highly recommended. However, with that being said, you bring up good points which will be taken to heart by myself and hopefully by thewink (Mark).

Thanks

[thewink]

Yes - very thorough reply and I appreciate the additional info!

[Tilebri]

Doug, I did not think that you built it. Actually, being a designer, you would be desinging the layout and the finished product, how it is fabricated comes down to the contractor. The preslope is probably the most overlooked code on the books. If this is your shower, do a critical inspection for any signs of failure now before it becomes too late for action, although your pictures speak louder than words. I think my favorite one was showing the nails right through the side of the liner near the bottom. My bet is the greanboard there is now shot and the framing has started to show signs of water damage. If this is a first floor, exterior wall, it may have invited bugs that enjoy eating wet wood by now as well. Too bad the durock panels will offer some protection from the faults showing up as quickly. Could you post some more pictures, maybe showing curb construction? I noticed the adhesive was white. Was this white thinset or mastic?

[Doug Aleshire]

Tilebri,

No problem. I appreciate the heads up on this. It does help all including me. I agree, I design them without getting into all the minute details as the Subcontractors are the ones we all rely on for doing it the "right" way and per "code".

Let me research more photos so I can answer your question.

Thanks again!

[Doug Aleshire]

Tilebri,

I looked at some other photo's but unable to determine exactly what was used.

I did see rubber sealant in tubes within the bathroom among all the tile that was going to be used.

At this point, can't do nothing about it but the information you provided, I in fact was not aware of.

Again Thanks

[Tileguybob]

Doug,

For your own safety, please do what you can to find out if mastic was used to adhere the tile, especially to the ceiling. The nature of steam in that its particulate of moisture is so small, it could find its way behind the tile and if the mastic is there and gets "wet" it will re-emulsify and loose its gripping power. Gravity will do the rest. The main reason I have suspicions about the mastic being there are the pictures of a bucket with a lid (#10 & 11 I think) which looks a lot like a mastic bucket.
If you need legal remedy, hire Tilebri, as your witness and your legal representation, he has the rulebook down pat, front to back :)
Good luck with everything

Bob

[Tilebri]

Rule book? There's a rule book? I didn't know Home Depot Home Improvement 123 was the rule book!!! Cool!!! :eek:

[day629]

hey Doug, I want to build a shower with to heads on both sides and a bench between each shower head, can I find a company to make a pan or is it a nightmare? I made a walking shower using the corning one sold @ lowes a few years ago, with the glas blocks, but this one I just want to do with glass about 9.5 " long and width about 4.5 "like any help you could give me with this one...thanks
Dean

[Doug Aleshire]

day629,

I currently have 2 projects that are what you are describing. Each is wood framed and have shower heads on each side of the bench. The side walls are a mix of 2x4 and glass shower doors on each side with the outside wall using tempered glass with a whirlpool directly in front of this. Making this doesn't take a custom made pan liner persay metal but a good flexible pan lining material like CPE.

You may want to post your question about the plumbing issues in plumbing. Water flow/volume will be an issue depending on your water flow controls. This is very important.

Read this,

Many people think that ceramic tile installations themselves are fairly watertight. They are far from that. Water can readily pass through tiny shrinkage cracks in the grout and around the contact point between the tile, grout and the shower drain. Leak proof tile showers incorporate special hidden membranes that are beneath the tile and a thin cement setting bed. You made your mistake thinking that the concrete slab would direct water to the drain. It simply doesn't work that way.
Years ago before the plastics industry was born, plumbers used thin sheets of lead for shower membranes or pans. They would skillfully form the lead into the bottom of the shower area and extend it up the shower walls approximately 9 to 12 inches. All seams would be soldered to make the pan leakproof. The lead connected to a special drain fitting that allowed water that seeped past the tile to go into the drain piping instead of your house.
Lead shower pans over time do develop leaks. Corrosion happens for any number of reasons and tiny pinhole leaks cause water to spot ceilings and walls. When this happens or in the case of a new shower installation, it is time to call in the replacements. The premier shower pan membrane used today is a flexible plastic made from chlorinated polyethylene (CPE). I have used it countless times and have it in my own showers. I have never had a leak with this product.
You can buy other polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pan membranes but they tend to be stiffer and harder to work with. The PVC membranes have a memory and try to go back to their original shape when you try to bend them around wood corners. The CPE products are flexible and have no memory. They naturally conform to irregularities in wood framing and are very easy to work with. If it is necessary to seam pieces together, you use a special solvent that welds them together into one leak-proof piece.
Special clamping ring drains must be used with shower pan membranes. These plumbing fittings have adjustable finished drains that allow you to adapt them to a wide variety of cement setting beds and tile thicknesses.
The CPE or PVC membranes attach to the drain in the same manner that a rubber washer is sandwiched between a nut and a bolt. Once the clamping portion of the drain is tightened, all water that collects in the pan is directed to hidden weep holes within the drain fitting.
To prevent future leaks, you need to make sure the sub-floor beneath the liner slopes to the drain. If the liner is placed on a wood sub-floor, make sure all nail heads are recessed and there are no large splinters that could puncture the membrane. Small washed gravel needs to be placed over the weep holes as well. Not many professionals do this. If you fail to do this, the cement base that supports the tile can clog these vital pathways that lead to the drain.
If you follow the manufacturer's installation instructions, your shower will be leak free for years.

I hope I answered your question. Hope this helps!

[Tilebri]

Hey day, post your plumbing questions in the plumbing forum and come over to the ceramic forum for pan building advice. We'll educate you on building a mud preslope, proper framing for your walls, benches and curb, as well as waterproofing needs. One thing you may want to seriously consider given the style of shower you want to build would be using the Kerdi shower membrane. Check it out at www.schluter.com and it will make your life easier. It is approved by code, but it is still new to most inspectors but Schluter can provide you with all the code acceptance information you will need.