Will I need a permit

[psal2]

I am adding a non-bearing wall in our garage to separate the laundry area from my work area. The wall will have a door but other than that it is not weight bearing. This will be attached to a ceiling joist and anchored to the slab floor. It will be drywalled and no outlets will be on it.

Do you think I need a permit? I am in central PA (Mechanicsburg).

Thanks,
Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

psal2,

By rights, YES. Regardless of bearing or not, this is a Firewall. Contact your local building authority for their requirements.

Hope this helps!

[psal2]

By rights, YES. Regardless of bearing or not, this is a Firewall. Contact your local building authority for their requirements.

Hope this helps!

I just checked their site. The permit is going to cost more than the material. If I leave it alone, no permit is needed and the laundry room is off the back of the garage now. If I put up a wall, so that sawdust doesn't get to the laundry area, then I need a permit. My garage is about 20 feet long and I was trying to make two parts, one about 12 feet long to use as a workshop and one 8 foot long as laundry/pantry. So the wall between needs to be a firewall? We still have a firewall between the garage/laundry and the rest of the house. I don't see how this becomes a firewall but I am not an architect.

Can someone explain that to me? I am not refusing but I am totally confused.

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

psal2,

Are you intending on leaving the existing door that goes into the garage alone? That is already a fire door or at least should be.

It depends on what you have in mind here. You are now creating a new space between the garage and the new laundry/pantry room. What about lighting, wall switches, etc? This is a fine line and calling the City is the best advice I can give you.

Sometimes what we want to do isn't as easy at it seems. Confirm what is needed or not needed.

Good Luck!

[psal2]

All existing doors, switches, etc are staying where they are. All I am doing is putting up a wall with a door. It will be insulated to help the laundry area stay warmer but other than that nothing will change.

And I WILL call the township. I looked at their fees and the fee will cost me more than the material (well almost more...LOL).

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

Pete,

I understand what you are saying but just want to make sure that you are doing the right thing, the right way. If I am wrong, won't be the first time.

Partition walls within a garage become an issue to the City. If this was just storage, it's one thing.

Is the ceiling of the garage fire-rocked now?

[psal2]

Looks like drywall on the ceiling. There is a pull down stair but that will be on the laundry side when done. Only part of the attic over the garage that has insulation is the area over the laundry room.

But that doesn't help as the opening to laundry area is the entire garage and it is colder than, well you know, in the winter. We had to insulate all the pipes and occassionally use a kerosene heater in the garage to make it tolerable to do wash. And if you stand in the family room, just off the garage, it is warm as can be. Walls there are insulated nicely.

Part of the reason to do this is to insulate the area above the "expanded" laundry area and the "new wall" in hopes to keep it warmer there without adding the kerosene heater or any other heater.

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

Pete,

I want to point out that when you add that new insulated, drywalled partition wall, you have required the new partion wall to be named the new Firewall - seperating it from house and garage. this means a new fire door or relocate the existing to the new wall.

In the past, in a home that has wanted to do this, I have been forced to include in my designs new frost footings for that partition wall. Reason for this is that you are now creating a "heated space", regardless if heat is in there or not. This room will be desginated as a "laundry room in the eyes of the City. The concern has been that the new wall is not built on a frost footing and that the existing slab could and can heave! (not knowing where you live, I am assuming frost conditions)

It would be wise to call the City. they may require you to do the same.

I was wondering about your plumbing pipes and how you were able to keep them warm and you just answered this. In obtaining a permit for this, they would also ask about the plumbing. As you can tell, what we think is simple may not be.

I would also recommend if you do this, and you still can use the garage for parking vehicles, that you may want to open the home up and included this space as part of the overall floor area. Maybe even install new floor joists to match existing ones of the home.

Hope this helps!

[psal2]

That helps a lot. Unfortunately, even a Mini-Cooper wouldn't fit in what is left. I also use that as a workshop. I was going to get an electrician in to run more outlets on the garage side and I think now I need to combine this project with that to save some permit fee money.

I appreciate the help. Not sure if it will warm up enough to make the floor heave though. But just a 15-20 degree higher temp will make a big difference in the middle of January.

Thanks again.

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

Pete,

You're welcome!

Sorry to bring up some things that I feel you will be facing but if I didn't you could be in trouble. Just a note, the electrical permit is seperate from a building permit.

Let us know how you are making out.

Good Luck!

[psal2]

Just spoke with the township. Said the permit would be about $27 ($2 permit fee, and .08 percent of the cost, minimum $25) and if the work (including the electric...it's on the same permit) is not over $3100, then the fee is the same. Might be $50 more if there is a contractor included.

Of course, that is what is said now...

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

Pete,

Sounds good!

[psal2]

I was hoping to do some of the work this weekend (I have Friday, Sat and Sun off) but I am now being told that it will take me 7-10 days to get a permit.

How can a contractor get it so quick, while an ordinary person can't?

Bureaucracy at its best...

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

Pete,

Contractors cannot get a permit any faster than you. The rules are the same for both. Don't let anyone tell you different.

[lefty]

What Doug is telling you is the gospel truth, especially the parts about a contractor isn't going to get a permit any faster than a homeowner will. (I know -- I've had to wait over 2 weeks just to get a permit for a simple deck, and I'm a contractor. It's just that the swimming pool contractors snuke in ahead of me!!!)

Yes, it needs a permit. Yes, it needs 5/8" sheetrock on the garage side of the wall and a self-closing door. Yes, any electrical boxes in that wall have to be metal. And no, MY local bldg. dept. would never approve it. The garage has to be 22' deep, from the overhead door to the back wall. So how have so many poeple around here done it?? They just haven't been caught for failing to get a permit to do it.

[psal2]

That's interesting. My garage is only 20' deep to start with. Now I am being told that I will need additional outlets every 6' feet. I am trying to get a clarification to see if I need to add outlets to the existing walls.

This is turning into a nightmare. I just wanted to make a separate laundry area from my work area.

I was asked if I am building a new laundry area and a powder room. There were in the original house built 30 years ago and I didn't change anything. Then, I was asked if I was going to lose my parking capability in the garage.

I have so much stuff in there, my son can't park his bicycle in the garage, let alone a car.

I showed them a floor plan and told them that the items on the plan were existing unless it said "proposed" but they didn't understand. What I want is one of them to come out and tell me but that would be a no-no. I know that is what contractors are for but the budget says I do it myself.

I might just ask to kill the permit, run a 2x4 along the ceiling and hang a tarp from it so the dust doesn't get into the laundry and not worry about all the rest (now that would really fit the budget...LOL).

Thanks,
Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

Pete,

Now you know what you and others think might be easy, it is not always as it appears.

I know this is all frustrating but I have to abide by the building codes in what I do. My job is to inform the owners of what is and or what can't be done. Sometimes you just have to make compromises. I know that my information that I design and draw up has to be accurate for the contractors/homeowners. This is why I suggested contacting your local building authorities for their requirements.

Even though you want to do something that may seem simple, the Building Codes are there to protect you and yours. It also is there to help you in selling the home, at least in part. One part of this is when there is an attached garage, they want to allow "at least 20 feet" of parking space. This is if you do the alterations that you mentioned in yoor first post.

What "was" doesn't count when you make improvements. Unless it is grandfathered in, you must abide by the current codes.

Rethink what you want to do and go from there.

Hope this helps!

[psal2]

Our driveway is 2 cars long and 1 car wide. Wouldn't that provide the "parking space" and we only have two cars? I think I answered that to the code guy. Then he came back with the outlets. The code inspector is to call me today, so we can discuss this further.

Now it is my understanding, maybe from one of these forums, that all garage outlets are to be GFCI, correct? And that outlets shouldn't be on the wall that abuts to the outside (?) or walls that exist. Therefore, I might only need to put two outlets in. I would put more if I can.

Garage/workship side outlets at least 4' high, that way I can lean sheet goods (4x8s) under them and still access the outlet.

And thanks for your advice.

Pete

[lefty]

Never heard of having to have outlets every 6' in the garage. Inside the house, yes, but not in the garage. (different use clasification).

Yes, the outlets have to GFCI controlled. The first one in the circuit (or the breaker for the circuit) is a GFCI, and that will control all of the outlets down line.

4' off of the floor is a good spot. What I would do is measure down 4' from the ceiling and put the bottom of the box at that level. Easier to sheetrock, since you are only cutting a hole in the upper sheet of 'rock. The lower sheet will be below the level of the boxes.

[psal2]

The wall will only be 12' long with a 32" door. The door is approximately 48" from the inside wall and 64" from the outside wall. I was considering going vertically (8' hight) with the sheetrock rather than horizontally (8' wide).

This would allow me to use 2 full sheets on each side, with 2 partials where the door can be cut out.

I figured that I could place the outlet at the edge of on of the sheets.

Would that work?

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

psal2,

Again, you're very welcome.

To my knowledge, only 1 outlet is required in a garage and it can be at 42" (bottom of box) plus an outlet for each garage door opener installed. Going slightly higher than 48" is a good idea for leaning sheetgoods against the wall. I always got irritated as well when you had to pull stock away from the wall just to plug in. Personally, only 1 outlet in a garage is worthless.

I agree with Lefty on the GFCI - one required at head of circuit for outlets. I have not heard of an outlet every 6 feet within a garage but as I mentioned before, the local authorities can make their own requirements. This is why I suggested calling them.

It's always easier to do your drywall horizontal but do what you feel is best for you.

Good Luck!

[DavidJ]

In most jurisdictions, a single family home is required to have one parking space. That space has to be located behind the required setback from the property line. Typically, the portion of your house that is closest to the front property line is at the required set back. Since a driveway is in the setback, it does not meet the requirement for a parking space.

In reality, most of us use our garage for a work shop or storage and the car is in the driveway. However, from a building code perspective, if you alter your garage so it can no longer be used as a parking space it would be a code violation. The city could refuse to issue a permit for the alternation.

DavidJ

[psal2]

I spoke with the inspector and he suggested, but would not require, that we expand the driveway to two car wide. I sent them a new plan with all the "proposed outlets" and they will let me know if the permit will be issued next week.

He stated that I need an outlet in the room that will be enclosed every 6', even on existing walls. I thought I read somewhere that outlets on the wall that is the outside wall weren't recommended.

He wasn't aware (as Lefty said) that the first one in the circuit (or the breaker for the circuit) is a GFCI, and that will control all of the outlets down line. He recommeded all be GFCI. Of course, if I don't, I could fail inspection.

Wish we could attach JPGs, so you could see the proposal.

I can't wait to see how this is going to turn out. Turns out he is new there but seems willing to help.

Pete

[Doug Aleshire]

Sorry, duplicate posting

[Doug Aleshire]

psal2,

Thanks for clearing that up. When I first read it, it didn't make sense within a garage area but interior is exactly what the inspector is referring to. I will do outlets 3 feet from inside corners and then 12 feet apart from there. I do prefer more outlets than Code requires.

The GFI located directly from a main feed and placement of all other outlets on that branch will be protected. You can ask this question on our Electrical Forum for confirmation.

Hope this helps!

[psal2]

Just got the following from the inspector:
Our (problably meant your) application is approved and you may pick-up your permit. The fees for the electrical inspection will be $30 for the rough and $30 for the final. There is also a $20 dollar fee for a zoning permit. Your total will be $80. Thank-you again for your cooperation in this process.

Can't wait to get started.

Thanks again for all the help.

Pete

[md2lgyk]

I understand that all the moderators here are professionals, and must/do provide professional answers. I respect that, and this post is no flame on them. But this thread is a perfect example of why folks sometimes don't bother with permits. In some cases it just adds too much to the hassle and expense. This poor guy just wants a warmer laundry room and the permit/inspection "requirements" have turned it into a major renovation. Frost footings?? A bigger driveway?? Oh please. . . . .

Several years ago I did virtually the same thing he wants to do. I did not get any permits. Nor did I have a bit of trouble selling the house, and the buyer had it inspected.

[Doug Aleshire]

md2lgyk,

I agree. The problem is that you may be one out of how many that got away with it!? Everyone wants to save a buck or the hassle of doing something relatively simple to major, like basement remodeling.

This attitude, however justified in ones own mind, has caused more buyers to seek professional home inspections for finding errors. Even though, a sincere homoewner, who only wanted to improve their investment, didn't get the required permit in the first place.

Doing it without permits, when required, has cost others thousands of dollars. The hint of suggesting that what you did was right and justified because you didn't get caught, is just implying that "If they don't find out, I'll be OK".

I can only offer this, I hope you can cough up the dollars when they take your advice for the damage it might incure on them after the fact.

I do understand the reasons why those don't, but it doesn't make it right.

[md2lgyk]

Actually, the buyer of the house in question did get a professional inspection as I noted. And the inspector had no problems with what I had done as far as construction, wiring, or anything else. Of course, some of the issues mentioned in this thread aren't a problem here - this county has virtually no zoning and very liberal building codes. No matter - I don't buy the shibboleth that if you don't get a permit, what you do is automatically wrong and/or dangerous. Though not a pro, I've been doing this stuff for over 30 years without a problem. If I want to do something I'm not sure of (like building a chimney) then I'll get a permit and inspection.

I don't see anywhere in my earlier post where I advised somebody to do what I did. I was merely offering one theory of why people skip the permit process.

[Doug Aleshire]

md2lgyk,

Debate is over.

No matter - I don't buy the shibboleth that if you don't get a permit, what you do is automatically wrong and/or dangerous. Though not a pro, I've been doing this stuff for over 30 years without a problem.

Your above response just confirms what most people feel or think. I, in fact, used to be that way as well. Why bother if you don't need to? Bad idea to even suggest it, especially here. Many do not know what is right or what the Codes are. We have many here that can perform the work, have the tools but knowing what is right can be another issue. Our goal here is to inform on issues, respond with facts and let them decide, as you have done, whether or not to do it the right way.

I don't see anywhere in my earlier post where I advised somebody to do what I did.

I won't debate the issue but the "hint of suggesting" it is what I meant. Nothing more and not meant to offend you .

This Forum is to help, with accurate and legal information. It is not to debate over what you did or have done just because you have had no problem. We need to stay within the context of the thread for the benefit of all.

Let's keep it helpful and friendly.

[psal2]

You gents all raise valid points.

Yes, I started a "simple" project and it evolved to more. Had I not wanted to know the proper facts, I would probably never have posted here or asked the township their advice. Should I have wanted to bypass the system, I could have but probably can't now or want to.

However, the cost of the material was about $200 and the permit will now cost me $107 (hope there isn't an insulation inspection...I better check that too), so it might be cost prohibitive to do this.

I can consider the $27 that I paid as tuition for learning what it takes to understand the codes and becoming more educated in the ways of building. I consider that a small price to pay...the other $80, I do find to be rediculous. Why can't I wire the entire thing, let them look at it and then drywall. Why do they need to see the rough wiring and then see it finished ($30 for each trip)(the other $20 is a zoning permit...haven't figured that one out yet). I believe that is an un-necessary step in this case. I could see that if it was a house being built. But running a wire up a stud to a terminal in the attic is not rocket science. It still needs to be connected properly and that to me is a finished inspection but I don't write codes and am probably wrong.

However, I can still do a partial frame to lean sheet goods against, I can drywall the partial frame and hang a tarp (I believe I did mention that) and not create a room. And I might still do that and at a later time, add a door and have it inspected then.

Pete

[md2lgyk]

This Forum is to help, with accurate and legal information. It is not to debate over what you did or have done just because you have had no problem. We need to stay within the context of the thread for the benefit of all.

Fair enough.

[lefty]

md2lgyk,

First, I don't feel flamed. But if psal2, or you, or I, or Doug, or anybody else lives in a jurisdiction where a permit is required to do what psal2 is doing, then you pull the permit. OK, psal2 is out about $125 for the permit -- that's just one of the costs of the project. The inspector SUGGESTED widening the driveway. Good eye!! Psal2 can thank him later if he takes the suggestion.

Home inspection on the sale of a house. Sorry, pro home inspectors aren't looking for code violations. That's not their job! It's probably different where you live, but in CA, if an addition or remodel was done to the house being sold, it's the REALTOR'S responsibility to verify that the work was done with permits, or to disclose that it wasn't. That affects the selling price of the house, and the buyer WILL and DOES reduce the offer by a whole lot more than what the permit would have cost. Then there is the issue of fire insurance, even if you aren't selling the house. Insurance companies CAN, HAVE, and WILL deny a claim if there was work done on a house without a permit when one was required.

As a moderator, I won't tell somebody to go ahead and do a project and skip the required permit. If I were just a member, I still wouldn't tell them that. and as a contractor, if the permit is required, I'M GONNA PULL IT!! I won't risk losing my license over a $100 or $2500 or $10,000 permit. WHEN a homeowner tells me "no permit", (and I've lost more than one job because of it) and refuses to budge, I tell them to go get somebody else.

[psal2]

If I am going to go through with this (and I might), I will do it right. But until I talk to an electrician I think that I will put up a 2x4 and tarp to keep the saw dust down.

Pete

[md2lgyk]

lefty:

I'm glad to hear you don't feel flamed; that was certainly not my intention. I have just lived in too many places where a permit and inspection are required to replace a defective light switch or faucet. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with rigidity like that.

I do agree that professional home inspectors are not code compliance experts. When I bought my current house I got a home inspection for the first time ever. I was frankly a bit nonplussed when the first 15 minutes of the inspection consisted of him telling me, and making me acknowledge in writing, that he was not a structural engineer, plumber, electrician, code compliance expert, etc. In the course of the inspection, he didn't check anything I wouldn't have myself. And he actually missed a couple of minor code violations. Of course, how could he possibly know what the plumbing code was in 1960 when the house was built? Whatever I do, it's the last time I ever hire a home inspector.

[lefty]

md2lgyk,

That's part of my point. We could discuss this thing forever. I don't have a problem with the home inspections that are required whenever you sell a house. But those inspectors CANNOT be looking for "code violations". WHAT CODE??? My house was built in 1956. That was before things like engineered trusses, GFCI outlets, 12/2 Romex with a ground, waste lines of ABS, copper pipe, ... Those things didn't exist when my house was built! No, there is NO WAY that inspector is going to know all of the bldg. codes that have existed in the past 50 or 80 years, and my house is OK because it was code when it was built, but the additions won't fly because they didn't meet the 'then current code' when they were done. THAT'S why we need bldg. permits!! The house was fine when it was built, 50 years ago. I remodeled the hall bath 25 years ago, and that met "current" code. I added the master bath 10 years ago, and THAT met "current" code. Redid the kitchen 4 years ago, and THAT was "current" code. Cool. My house meets all of the "current codes" that have existed in the past 50 years. But how is that inspector gonna know what was done what, when??? Did it meet code when it was done?? I say yes -- he's guessing!!

That inspector is looking for things like rot, worn out water heaters, possibly termite damage, a roof that should have been replaced 10 years ago, ... Tell the buyer what they are getting.

THAT'S at least part of the reason that we need bldg. permits.

[Doug Aleshire]

The initial posting was asked, answered and other questions related have been addressed. We have taken this thread to its limits. It has expanded into debates which is not the intent of this Forum.

If the original poster has more information to ask or share, please start a new thread as this is too long.

Doug Aleshire
Super Moderator 2