Doors and Windows - Hanging a pre-hung, where am I going wrong?

Hi,

I'm no pro, just the second time I've hung a door. I'm having a problem. Background:

The door is a 32" Masoninte - solid-core, pre-hung in a 6 1/2" jamb. When standing in front of the door, it swings open from right to left into a room (hinges on the left).

My jamb is level, as is the header jamb (if that's what it's called - the horizontal piece at the top). I've screwed in the hinge side, not the latch side as I figure I can make adjustments there easily.When I hang the door (put in the 3 pins) and close it, the door doesn't close. The upper right hand corner is too tight. I can force it by moving the right jamb a bit, but it's not right - and when I move the right jamb, the header gets off level.

When I look at the door when it's as closed as it gets, the reveal on the hinge side at the top is much wider than the bottom. Could it be that the top hinge (or bottom for that matter) was installed wrong at the factory? Or am I doing something wrong?

Worse case, a friend who's a carpenter will come over in a week to help me. But I'd love to fix it myself!

Thanks,
Bob

Bob, you said,
"I've screwed in the hinge side, not the latch side ...".

You did not mention any use of shims. Did you screw the hinge side jam directly into the rought opening stud without shims?

It sounds like you did, but we need to know to avoid giving needless advice. Hint, you need to shim both the left and right side of the door.

Also, check the level at the bottom of the jam (bottom of door opening) to see if it is level, from jam to jam. Sometimes the floor is level but there are little pocket holes in the floor exactly where the jam sits. Consider that when you check for level.

Thanks for the reply. No, I did not shim the hinge side, I put it flat against the frame. However I could certainly try that. For my info, what's the value of shimming the hinge side if the frame (2x4) is perfectly level & plumb? Wouldn't that potentially introduce other potential issues?

Also, when shimming, is there a standard practice as to how many, where, etc?

Thanks!
Bob

Assuming the rough opening for the door is correct and roughly 3/4" wider than the prehung door/jam, then there is every reason to shim both sides. For example, if you don't shim one side, then you have to add up to 3/4" shim on the opposite side. Shims are typically a max of 3/8". So before you even begin to square things up, you have just created a problem of having to shim a really big gap with undersized shims.

Furthermore, if you put a 6' level (not a 2', nor a 4') against the stud, more often than not, they will not be perfectly square to the opening, nor level. It is impractical for carpenters to build perfectly square and level rough openings. Keep in mind that a door fits accurately within 1/16th to 1/8th inch evenly around the jam. In addition, to being square and level, the door jam must be perpendicular to the wall itself. So there are actually 3 angles involved, i.e. level, square, perpendicular. If you nail right to the stud, then later discover the door will not square up, then you have no way to adjust the jam.

Rough openings are just that, rough. By shimming the door, you control precisely, all 3 angles. The shims are perfectly designed for this job. They are quick and easy to use. Typically you place a shim where you are nailing, to hold the shim in place of course. More over, there is typically one shim location behind, or more accurately, very near each hinge, on the hinge side. Additionally shim locations, if needed, after these 3 are installed.

If you think that the door is weak when installed with shims, then you are correct. To keep a door and jam firmly inplace for every day use, you must add the finish trim. The finish trim is nailed to both the door jam and the rough opening stud with the correct size of nails, not brads. After the trim is installed, the door will be mighty solid.

I'll take a break here to see how much of this makes sense to you.
(edited for spelling)

Assuming you agree to the above post, I'll take it another step.

Start by placing the first shim near the upper door hinge. Using that point as an anchor point, simply work your way down the door with your level as you shim the remaining 2 hinges.

As a starting point, if you have roughly 3/8" gap on both left and right sides of door, by eyeballing it, then place the first shim in all the way, thus leaving a 3/8" gap. Basically, eyeball the gap on both sides such that the door is evenly spaced in the opening, then slip in a shim till it fills the gap and nail.

I assume you are familiar with the technique of a shim in each hand, slide one in the front, simulataneouly, one from the back. Thus 2 shims per location. This is also how you bring the jam perpendicular to the wall, by sliding one in further than the other, but I don't want to lose you on other details. However, if the jam is not perpendicular to the wall, then the door will bind or otherwise not close properly. You'll see this more clearly as you experience it. Don't worry, all shims can be adjusted to correct the fit before you hang the trim.

Now simply square the top jam to each side with a square and repeat the process on the striker side. Actually with a prehung door, you will use the door itself as your square, since the door happens to be convieniently where you want it.

There is technically more to it than this, such as keeping the jam perpendicular to the wall, insuring proper gap at the bottom of the door, etc. But you be able to see those things more clearly as you actually hang the door.

Lugnut - fantastic info. I had always assumed (given you have a 'good' hinge side frame, you'd nail/screw directly to it. I see shims is the better way. I'll give you methods a try & see what happens.

The door I'm installing is between a family room and my workshop in the basement. The wall already existed - the previous door was in a metal frame, kinda like you'd see in some office buildings. In the 50's, they used this type of metal door frame (jamb & frame) throughout our area, they are ugly (multiple layers of paint, etc.) and I want to remove all of them in my house. I'm attacking this door first as it is less critical (basement) in case of problems. Once I have a better feel for this, I want to replace all of my doors.

One thing you said has me concerned - that is the jamb being perpendicular to the wall. The wall where this door is on is 12' wide. The rough door opening is maybe 10" from one corner. When the wall was built (low ceilings by the way), the walls on each side of the opening are not on the same plane. In other words if I put a 4' level horizontally across the door opening, the level doesn't lay any where near flat. While I can measure tonight, I'd guess that the 10" side of the wall is probably an inch off from the otherside (could be more or less). Since the wall is nicely finished, I don't want to rebuild anything, would having the door at an angle pose large problems?

Thanks again,
Bob

Angleing the door? Since the center of the 4 1/2" door jam will, in all cases, be aligned with the center of the 4" to 5" rough opening, regardless of the irregular wall variances, you will never actually be angleing the door.

Assuming that the remaining 3 of 4 walls are on the same plane, then you have 1 wall that is 1 inch thicker that the others. One inch is alot. Hmmmm. I think if I were at the house to see it, I would arrive at a different solution than I might here, online.

Something may have to 'change' to get a good fit. Here are where there are no text book answers. For example, you might have to, or indeed want to, correct the short 10" wall. But I think you can fit this door into the old opening without changing the wall.

For starters, use trial and error fits. Set the door and jam in place, then use a few shims, without nailing, to hold it in place. Then grab a short piece of finish trim, say 2 ft long, and hold it to the jam and wall, as if it were installed. Do this all the way around the door, both sides. Visually, look for the optimum placement of the door that would allow the trim to fit to your satisfaction. You will have to bump and scoot the door to new settings to find this optimum location.

From this, you can decide if it will even be feasible to perform the job without 'changing' something.

Your two requirements are: 1. The door must fit, open and close. 2. The finished door with trim must look good.

If the wall is truely 1" thicker than the opposing side, you need to look at the rough opening and learn why.

One common method of dealing with "thick spots" (but not 1" thick, maybe up to 1/4") is this: After the door is installed, score the drywall with a knife along the outside edge of the finish trim, where the thick spots are. Then using that fine razor line as your edge, get a small 5" hand rasp and remove drywall to the depth you need to remove the thick spot. You can do this the entire length of the door if you have to. When re-fitted with the trim, you won't see the rasped area under the trim, and you won't have any wall repair nor painting to perform. Keep in mind, that the more drywall you rasp out, the deeper the trim will seat into this area. This will affect number 2 above, i.e. the finished door must look good. This is because the trim will appear thinner where it is seated into the rasped drywall. Of course, it is likely that no one will see the trim edge on your short 10" wall. You might rasp both sides of the thick wall, thus leaving 2 shallow rasped areas instead of one deep area.

You can also shim the thinner walls, just under your trim to raise the trim the along the length of the door. The shiming under the trim will not show the gap if it is caulked. However, without going to a supplier, you will have to devise your own shim, because, unlike door shims, the trim shims are long thin flat pieces about 3/4" wide, made of a paper product and about 1/16" thick and you could put 2 layers, i.e. 1/8" of shims.

Pay close attention the the upper corners of the door where your trim mitre joint will be. That mitre join must be on the same plane or else you have a uneven joint which is highly visible.

Keep in mind that the drywall can be slightly higher or lower than the actual jam without having to shim. This is partly due to the fact that all door trim has a wide shallow valley cut into the backside. The bottom line is whether it looks good or not when your done.

The thinner the trim stock, the easier it is to bend to conform to irregular walls. Same is true with MDF trim.

Aside from these ideas, you will have to figure out what is best for you.

Thanks again Lugnut. Unfortunately I had other obligations last night so I didn't get back to the door, I hope to this evening. One thing I did do was to measure the rough opening. It is 1" rather than 3/4" wide. I could use my table saw & cut a 1/4" sister to attach to the frame, would you recommend this?
Bob

Don't sister it. The 3/8" shims will fill the 1/2" gap,, just push the pair closer together. Try it, you'll see what I mean.

Hey Lugnut,

I hung the door over the weekend - it went well. Thanks so much for your input, I'm now going to do another door this week and over the next year, I'm going to rip out 8 other doors in my house & replace them with new ones.

Thanks again,
Bob