Doors and Windows - HELP: Replacement or New Construction

I recently purchased a house where the previous owner must have figured out (finally) that he had rotten sills so he hired a carpenter to come out, take jigsaw to the rotten sills (and some of the brickmolding). Then he replaced the sills and some of the brickmolding with coil stock wrapped pressure treated wood. While this left the windows asthetically acceptable, they have the following problems (in my limited educated opinion)
a) he left parting stock that was so rotted that finger pressure collapes it (well most of this parting stock was replaced at my insistance prior to the sale so that there would not be a channel for water to go into the jamb/interior walls as a stop gap solution)
b) the majority of these windows actually have rotten jambs as well (ranging from greyed to crumbly to completely missing wood) extending 3-6 inches above the sill
c) I have to think the above condition is an infiltration problem (certainly these windows are very cold and ice up when we get sub zero)
d) I was told by a couple of friends that pressure treated wood while rot resistant is likely to warp and thus perhaps I am going to have a problem maintaining a tight sash/sill seal.


I tell you all this because I am trying to decide between new construction or replacement windows. My naieve understanding of replacement windows is that they leave the sill, jambs and headers in place right? If yes, what is the best procedure for my situation? Does one, rebuild the jamb and sill or does it make more sense to just go with a new construction window? Am I right in assuming that all the efficiency gain of a new window is lost if I don't get the jamb/sill back to a solid state?

If at all possible, I would like to keep my interior trim (it is quite elaborate/nice). Does this factor into the decision?

Does anyone have recommendations regarding brands? I am leaning towards wood interior with vinyl clad exterior to maintain the current asthetic but this seems to limit me in terms of companies and thermal performance (though I think I finally convinced myself that those triple pane krypton u-factor=0.18 windows don't really pay off if you have to pay more than $40 more than your standard u-factor 0.34 ish windows that are the standard)

The "parting stop" is the 1/2" x 3/4" piece of wood that sits vertically between your upper and lower wood sashes. Your "blind stop" is on the outside of the jamb, and is probably what you are referring to, since they often get rotton at the bottom where they meet the sill.

There are many reasons why your sills could be rotting: soft wood that was not kept painted / no storm windows / storm windows were caulked on and left open / bad flashings (water infiltration from above the window) / covering windows with plastic on the outside / the list could go on and on. But generally, it is safe to assume that there was some major moisture problem in the past- or it could still be occuring.

When replacing rotton wood, there is almost no way to replace all the rotton wood. you have to stop somewhere. That's why the jamb legs and some of the blind stop were not replaced. Either the majority of it was OK, or they felt they had to stop somewhere.

The way you described his repair, it sounded to me like he only replaced part of your sill? Or did he replace all of the sill? In either case, some treated wood will warp, but generally, that isn't an issue. I've replaced hundreds of sills and have never had a callback.

Regarding your question about replacement windows, your are correct. When installing replacement windows, they go into the old jamb. Thus, if your rotton jambs concern you, a replacement window is not the way to go.

One could conceivably cut away the old jamb and sill, leaving your trim intact, then fabricate and install a new jamb and sill, but there is no guarantee that your inside trim would not be damaged in the process. Its very difficult to remove a jamb without removing the trim. It's also often difficult to remove trim and reuse it. It is GOING to get damaged.

With all the problems it sounds like you have with rotton wood, a new construction window might be best. They could be installed and flashed properly, eliminating any potential problem there, and taking care of any future problems as well. Getting rid of the rotton wood is a win-win situation.
The only drawback is that your trim would go away. But if you like the way it looks, I'm sure that your trim carpenter can make your new trim look as much like the old trim as possible. And depending on whether it comes off in one piece, he may even be able to reuse "some" of it... but certainly not all of it.

A new construction window will be more efficient than a replacement window. Primarily, this is because you are getting rid of the old jamb and sill which may or may not be insulated very well around the outside. You can be certain that new construction windows will be installed and insulated according to current standards.

Regarding brands, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't like Pella's architectural series windows. They are aluminum clad on the outside, wood on the inside, and have nice options such as slimshades. But personally, I would stay away from anything that is vinyl clad.

I've always been a big opponent of vinyl/aluminum cladding on wood windows, these make up the majority of the windows that i replace. While they look nice and pretty when you first install them, time/weather will takes it toll and it wont be too long before your new windows are literally rotting from the inside out.

Depending on outside elements and moisture, what happens is that the cladding has different expansion rates than the wood it is covering. You should be able to look at any anderson window that's been installed for about 5-10 year and see what I'm talking about. Pretty soon the wood expands at a rate the cladding cant/wont keep up with and now all those fancy mitered cladded corners are wide open justwaiting for rain to find it's way behind it-thus starting the rotting from the inside out process which will eventually start greying the interior wood if left untreated. Dabbing some good silicone into the separated corners will be a quick fix for the time being, but a band aid fix at best.

I'm personally patial to all vinyl replacement windows-mainly becasue I've installed them for years with no troubles which equals money in my pocket since I never go back. You can get vinyl wiindows with a wood veneer on the interior so it looks like wood, but is maintainence free of any painting or staining.

Another option would be fiberglass windows, and depending on budget some of these fiberglass man. even offer real wood installed on the interior side of the frame/sashes for the warmth that only real wood can provide.

You can get either the vinyl or fiberglass in new construct design and may be the best choice "in the long run" for your situation given the amount of rot you have to deal with. While I do like the warm feeling the real wood windows have to offer, after doing this kind of work and replacing thousands of windows, they are just not a longterm window, if they were they woul'nt be the #1 window that I replace:) I've had many customers in this area living in homes that were built in the late 90's already having to have their clad windows replaced....talk about some unhappy people, but it keeps me in business :thumbup: For the investment I personally would rather replace the windows 1 time in my life and not have to worry about the what if's in 8-10 yrs if your upkeep regiman is not religiously adhered to-which 90% of america's is not as we all have better things to do with our time that keeping on top of frivilous maintenance issues.

First thanks for the detailed reply. It was very helpful.
The "parting stop" is the 1/2" x 3/4" piece of wood that sits vertically between your upper and lower wood sashes. Your "blind stop" is on the outside of the jamb, and is probably what you are referring to, since they often get rotton at the bottom where they meet the sill.

Absolutely right. My mistake.

The prev. owner liked to leave the screens on and it is a very windy area. Last snow storm I found the wind had driven through the screens and packed the snow 18" up the window. My guess is as this slowly thaws there are plenty of opportunities to drip into an un-caulked, neglected sill/trim/jamb. I have removed the screens and gotten in the habbit of dusting the windows off to prevent further damage until I get a completely sealed solution.

Thanks for the info about pressure treated usually not warping. I am fairly sure he did replace the whole sill and even coil-stocked the brick molding as well. I see a sill all the way under the rotted jamb



One could conceivably cut away the old jamb and sill, leaving your trim intact, then fabricate and install a new jamb and sill, but there is no guarantee that your inside trim would not be damaged in the process. Its very difficult to remove a jamb without removing the trim. It's also often difficult to remove trim and reuse it. It is GOING to get damaged.


Now I am a bit worried. I have 2 quotes for replacement windows. I showed both parties the rotten jambs and they said they would cut out and replace the rotten wood, insulate, re-trim the outside and I would be done with windows for the life of the house. Sounds like you are skeptical.


As for the rest of your comments, I will probably now get an estimate for what you suggest to compare to but hearing what my neighbors had to pay to get their trim to not even 1/4 of the detail and quality (yes I understand that trim carpentry is labor intensive) of the original is a little scary. Also, I have not found any new construction windows that come close to the thermal efficiency of the best replacements (u-factor= 0.18 for the park avenue).
You raise an interesting point though regarding how much infiltration I may have remaining between the jamb and the framing (which replacement windows will have a hard time addressing without pulling out the jambs, trim and we are back to the high labor charge).

You can get either the vinyl or fiberglass in new construct design and may be the best choice "in the long run" for your situation given the amount of rot you have to deal with. While I do like the warm feeling the real wood windows have to offer, after doing this kind of work and replacing thousands of windows, they are just not a longterm window, if they were they woul'nt be the #1 window that I replace:) I've had many customers in this area living in homes that were built in the late 90's already having to have their clad windows replaced....talk about some unhappy people, but it keeps me in business :thumbup: For the investment I personally would rather replace the windows 1 time in my life and not have to worry about the what if's in 8-10 yrs if your upkeep regiman is not religiously adhered to-which 90% of america's is not as we all have better things to do with our time that keeping on top of frivilous maintenance issues.

Thanks for the information about cladding. Will probably try to get a quote on new-construction windows that are all vinyl or some fiberglass construction based on your opinion though, as mentioned in my reply above, with some 40 windows to take care of, the trim may in the end rule the day since I doubt I can afford the "trim" rebuild of new construction. Guess I was naively hoping that healthy interior trim could be popped off and put back on after the window replacement. A few of the windows have loose trim and certainly in these cases it looks rather easy to pull them off without damaging them (probably loose because of the swelling in the rotting window jamb and sill....hopefully not the framing members as well
:eek: ). As I mentioned above, I am having a hard time finding new-construction windows that compete with the thermal efficiency of the replacements (triple pane Park Avenue).

One other point which perhaps makes another question.
You mentioned vinyl with a wood veneer and I saw that on a window last night. I am not sure I like the "wood" veneer but I am curious how much like painted over wood this will look like if you go over it with a coat of paint that is off white like my trim currently is? I guess what I am asking is will it look like a painted wood window (which is what we currently have and like)? I know I have to be super careful with this because I cannot sand this wood veneer but assuming I get a super long lasting paint will I get most of that warm, painted wood feeling (and perhaps match reasonably well with the trim and other non-replaced windows in my house) following this process? It is an important question because it is a 10% price bump on one of my estimates to do this. I suppose you see where I am going right. Biggest nock on the replacement windows to me is the bright vinyl (not crazy about the earthtone alternative) that realy draws attention to the window and screams I AM A REPLACEMENT.

Of course there is probably no way to get the fusion welded seams to ever fool people though some companies seem to do a much better job with this than others (Schuco, though very expensive have an inside out welding that seems very clean relative to the Park Avenue's I saw last night).

Thanks again for the help past and any future you can provide.

All of the vinyl replacements round here that have the woodgrain looking veneer, is just that-it looks like oak (main veneer option) but it is just a plastic veneer that is as smooth as the original vinyl window itself. It's dont so houses with interior wood work that has not been painted over and is still in good shape-it allows these windows to blend in better instead of like you said stand out bright white. Eveybodies situation is different as is interior trim and their opion on asthetics, so 90% of folks just opt for the white inside/outside since 1 it is cheaper which seems to dictate 99.999% of homeowners buying descions and most could care less as long as it seasl better than their old ones:)

Fiberglass windows in this area are the only one I know of that use REAL wood veneer on the inside of their windows. If you bought those and painted them it would obviously appear to be painted wood since....it is ;)

With that many windows to replace there will be no cheap option. You would, and should get some sort of quanity disount from whomever you purchase windows from, but that's still an awful lot of windows!!! We have to replace rotten sills/jambs all the time so it's not that big of a deal, main thing is trying to get the old stuff off without tearing it up. Most of these older homes that is very hard to do since the wood itself is VERY dry and brittle, so all the installers can do is there best to try and remove it without incident. You seem to have a grasp on what's going on, so being suprised if some triim did get damaged may not freak you out like it does some homeowners. Only thing anybody can do is try to make something that will match as closely as possible, which takes some time figuring out patterns in the old trim to make the multi piece system of reinstalling new stuff work, but it can be done. Depending on how intricate it is, you know money will factor in at some point....kind of goes along with the territory of owning a large older house. Everything turns into a major financial ordeal:)

Good luck and get as many opinions/estimates as it takes until YOUR confident with what your getting. Either way, once it's all said and done you'll be extrememly pleased with whatever new window you decide to go with.

THanks again for all your advice.

Perhaps I should have said this earlier. The house is only 16 years old. The current windows are double pane (1/4" probably no gas left if there ever was any and good old metal spacers that give me frosty edges with about any humidity on our -10 evenings). Another clarification may be in order. Only 18 of the 40+ windows have jam rot "fixed" with coil stock. The rest of the windows have some shelter from the wrap around, shaded porch which seems to have spared them from the worst weather

I think I might play around with the trim a bit this weekend to see how difficult it is to dissasemble and also to take a peek :eek: at how scary the jambs look from other vantage points. Might also take the opportunity to stuff some insulation in there if I find the space and drafts.

As for the "laminate", on the park avenue window it clearly felt like it had a grain (not smooth) AND the brochure says it IS paintable whereas painting vinyl or other smooth surface would seem to be a losing proposition.

If the house is only 16yrs old and the builder had any sense I'd be willing to be everything around the openings will be insulated...or at least should've been. Another plus would be the fact it's still new enough whatever the trim design they used should still be commonly available in case you do have replace a broken oeice here or there, so at least you have that going for you.

It's highly unusual except in the highest end custom homes that trim is designed and made specific for 1 place since set-up is so darn much as well as the whole process it's just not practical for anything BUT super high dollar homes.

Another tip for you or anybody else happening across this forum. Since the most practical tool for removing any sort of trim is a flat bar/pry bar there needs to be a modification done. The cheap bars have very thick often blunt ends, so trying to finesse them behind any casing/inside stop, etc...will result in badly damaging the trim since it's darn near like hitting it with a hammer.

When we buy new flat bars/pry bars the first thing we do is take it to the grinding wheel or grinder and start grinding down the edge so it's thinner. When done it make the end of the pry bar almost like kinfe blade thin so it'll acutally slid behind the casing/trim/stop and as it's inserted further it'll start working it's way to the fatter portion of the bar and push the trim away from the wall/jamb. I've had to buy some cheapy units in the feild and all they're good for "off the shelf" is grunt work like demolition-NOT fine work removal.

Also, on the sills "fixed" with coil stock, depending on what kind of crew did the repairs and cap work, alot of the shoddy fly by night guys just cap right over the old rotten stuff. Once their done, you'll never know it's rotten and falling apart becasue you cant see it, but fact remains it's still rotting away under the cap work if it was'nt repaired correctly the first time. A great many homeowners themselves opt to have this done if their going to be selling the property and just want it to look astectically pleasing without dumping large sums of money into it.

If you grind down the flat bar and take your time, I think you'll be surprised at how easy it will come off-especially being as new as it is, really has'nt had the dry time and multiple layers of paint houses built in the 30's and early 60's have.

Have fun. Keep us posted on what you find.

Just a bit of information. I work for the Orange Box and we carry the American Craftsman vinyl windows. Thye make both new construction and repalcement windows. One of the neat things is that they can set up a replacement window to fit your hole and install a nailing flange, so that it works just like a new construction. Hope this helps

That's pretty much standard on any vinyl replacement window-being a replacement/installing nailing hem for new construct. I wll tell you the American Craftsman series design is about 15yrs behind the times when compared to newer/better brands....not the ones sold in the orange tool box.
I remember the first job I subbed for HD I had to install some of those windows, we all got a good laugh when we cut the wrapping and proceeded to start mulling them together.....they stopped doing things that way a long time ago with H channel for mulls and H channel for the top to fill a gap. To each their own I guess.