Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - Weird softener/pressure problem (it's a Sears)
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Hart
02-01-05, 09:04 AM
This is kind of a dual issue post, so I also put it up on the "Filters/Conditioners" board.
While running my hose last fall, our power went out and I pretty much ran the water line, pressure tank, etc. dry. The entire house (outside faucets :wall: included) run off our Sears water softener. It's one of those half-pint, sawed-off models for crawlspaces with reduced clearance. Up until this occurence, we never had trouble with it. I had installed an inline water filter, but downstream of the softener (installed before the softener was, though I never thought to add another filter upstream of softener). The softener was also installed by the Sears contractor without a bypass. At any rate, after we got our power back on, we had incredibly reduced water pressure. So much that a toilet flush would cause the shower to stop. First Sears tech came out, took the top off the resin tank, took the top basket out and we eventually couldn't get it back in after rinsing it. So, we bypassed the softener until a replacement tank could be installed, as everything else apparently checked out. Tech had never seen an instance where he couldn't get basket back into the top of the resin tank. We had a new resin tank installed, and I realized that I really needed an upstream filter, so I installed one about 2 days after new resin tank was installed. Guys that came out actually had to beat on the top basket to get it seated so that the head could be clamped down. We continued to have the same pressure problem. Another tech came out (w/34 years experience), and he had never even SEEN one of these smaller models. Any way, HE took off the top of the resin tank, and the resin actually started spilling up and out of the top of the tank. Obviously, this guy had never seen this, either. Turns out that the distributor inside the recently-replaced resin tank was broken at it's base from the first two geniuses w/the hammer and pine board. It also appeared, after we dumped out the resin, that there was gravel interspersed throughout it. By this time, I was going around with Sears management about what I was (or was not) going to end up paying for this mess. This guy was convinced that the first resin tank was clogged with "sand". It may have been clogged, but I doubt it would have been with "sand". Some sediment, maybe, but not sand. After the resin tank had been replaced, I installed an upstream filter just a couple days after, and nothing but some iron sediment showed up, though a good quantity. There was never any gravel that showed up in the fliter. I was actually of the mind, after seeing the gravel mixed in with the resin, that it was well screen filter pack that had been sucked up by the well pump from the bottom of my well, though it never came out in the bypass at the pressure tank or in either of the inline filters. Sears came out and replaced the resin tank a second time, and I ended up only paying for a little under their cost for ONE of the resin tanks (would have been about $480 for the tank alone had I not had all the trouble; I paid $250 total for the tank(s) and what was now up to 4 service calls). So I paid that, had the second brand new resin tank installed (with a fully functioning inline filter upstream of it), and I'm STILL below where my original water pressure was. I did recently bump my pressure up from 30/30 to 40/60, but I'd really like to know if my softener is causing me trouble. It's about 7-8 years old, and everything else checks out (recharge rate, etc.). What could have caused the resin to come spilling out? Why did my original pressure go down so much after running the system dry? I think that I got a good slug of iron sediment from the pressure tank, but with a new resin tank (and apparently fully functioning softener) and increased tank pressure, why am I still coming up short? If the softener is bypassed, I have all the pressure I can stand, even through the 2 inline filters. So, I've got some issue at the water softener location in my water line. Is it just getting close to replacement? We don't use THAT much water here, being just me, my wife and 4 year old. Any insights would be appreciated.
While running my hose last fall, our power went out and I pretty much ran the water line, pressure tank, etc. dry. The entire house (outside faucets :wall: included) run off our Sears water softener. It's one of those half-pint, sawed-off models for crawlspaces with reduced clearance. Up until this occurence, we never had trouble with it. I had installed an inline water filter, but downstream of the softener (installed before the softener was, though I never thought to add another filter upstream of softener). The softener was also installed by the Sears contractor without a bypass. At any rate, after we got our power back on, we had incredibly reduced water pressure. So much that a toilet flush would cause the shower to stop. First Sears tech came out, took the top off the resin tank, took the top basket out and we eventually couldn't get it back in after rinsing it. So, we bypassed the softener until a replacement tank could be installed, as everything else apparently checked out. Tech had never seen an instance where he couldn't get basket back into the top of the resin tank. We had a new resin tank installed, and I realized that I really needed an upstream filter, so I installed one about 2 days after new resin tank was installed. Guys that came out actually had to beat on the top basket to get it seated so that the head could be clamped down. We continued to have the same pressure problem. Another tech came out (w/34 years experience), and he had never even SEEN one of these smaller models. Any way, HE took off the top of the resin tank, and the resin actually started spilling up and out of the top of the tank. Obviously, this guy had never seen this, either. Turns out that the distributor inside the recently-replaced resin tank was broken at it's base from the first two geniuses w/the hammer and pine board. It also appeared, after we dumped out the resin, that there was gravel interspersed throughout it. By this time, I was going around with Sears management about what I was (or was not) going to end up paying for this mess. This guy was convinced that the first resin tank was clogged with "sand". It may have been clogged, but I doubt it would have been with "sand". Some sediment, maybe, but not sand. After the resin tank had been replaced, I installed an upstream filter just a couple days after, and nothing but some iron sediment showed up, though a good quantity. There was never any gravel that showed up in the fliter. I was actually of the mind, after seeing the gravel mixed in with the resin, that it was well screen filter pack that had been sucked up by the well pump from the bottom of my well, though it never came out in the bypass at the pressure tank or in either of the inline filters. Sears came out and replaced the resin tank a second time, and I ended up only paying for a little under their cost for ONE of the resin tanks (would have been about $480 for the tank alone had I not had all the trouble; I paid $250 total for the tank(s) and what was now up to 4 service calls). So I paid that, had the second brand new resin tank installed (with a fully functioning inline filter upstream of it), and I'm STILL below where my original water pressure was. I did recently bump my pressure up from 30/30 to 40/60, but I'd really like to know if my softener is causing me trouble. It's about 7-8 years old, and everything else checks out (recharge rate, etc.). What could have caused the resin to come spilling out? Why did my original pressure go down so much after running the system dry? I think that I got a good slug of iron sediment from the pressure tank, but with a new resin tank (and apparently fully functioning softener) and increased tank pressure, why am I still coming up short? If the softener is bypassed, I have all the pressure I can stand, even through the 2 inline filters. So, I've got some issue at the water softener location in my water line. Is it just getting close to replacement? We don't use THAT much water here, being just me, my wife and 4 year old. Any insights would be appreciated.
Moli
02-01-05, 07:44 PM
Gravel is often added to resin tanks as an underbedding for the resin, so that's probably normal. The only reason I can think of resin flowing out the tank when you remove the valve is that there's back pressure in the system.
When they replaced the resin tank, did they replace the resin as well, or did they use the old resin?
Just offhand, if all the baskets are clear, and you have old resin, I'd say your resin is clogged or degraded. If they put in new resin, I'd say it's possible that there's either an internal blockage in the valve, or the valve isn't completely in service mode.
Also, if the repairmen did any plumbing, make sure they hooked up the water lines to the softener correctly.
When they replaced the resin tank, did they replace the resin as well, or did they use the old resin?
Just offhand, if all the baskets are clear, and you have old resin, I'd say your resin is clogged or degraded. If they put in new resin, I'd say it's possible that there's either an internal blockage in the valve, or the valve isn't completely in service mode.
Also, if the repairmen did any plumbing, make sure they hooked up the water lines to the softener correctly.
Hart
02-02-05, 10:00 AM
No, the resin tank replacement was a total unit: tank, resin, etc. So it's new resin. The only logical explanation is that the resin got clogged with enough sediment to displace the resin.
Service tech didn't do any plumbing....they aren't allowed to even TOUCH the plumbing. There weren't even supposed to touch the fittings to disconnect the softener from the water lines. I was able to pitch enough of a b&@!h that they saw the idiocy of that policy, though it wasn't like I really needed their help for that. He ran the unit through its cycle, we did a manual recharge, everything seemed to check out okay. At least according to him.
Service tech didn't do any plumbing....they aren't allowed to even TOUCH the plumbing. There weren't even supposed to touch the fittings to disconnect the softener from the water lines. I was able to pitch enough of a b&@!h that they saw the idiocy of that policy, though it wasn't like I really needed their help for that. He ran the unit through its cycle, we did a manual recharge, everything seemed to check out okay. At least according to him.
Moli
02-02-05, 03:19 PM
Assuming for a minute that (*cough*) everything is installed correctly and properly working, my most likely explaination is that the replacement uses a different resin, or a different configuration of resin and gravel underbedding than what was in the original unit. I can't see a resin tank clogging instantly.
Do you know what kind of valve it is? There's a valve commonly used on Kenmore, GE, and other cabinet models manfactured by Ecodyne. Go here and find the "deluxe valve" animation:
http://www.kenmorewater.com/animations/product-animation/index.html
When you get to the valve, click on "overview", and then "next" and it should show you the "Valve Position Indicator." On this valve, if you look directly down on it, there should be a hole in the motor mount where you can look through and see an "S" on the metal cam with a line next to it. That line should line up exactly with a ridge on top of the plastic "to drain" area of the valve. If the line is off by much, then it's possible your not fully in service mode. If you think it's not lined up, put the unit bypass mode (or cut off water to it) and take the motor off the unit. Then turn the cam clockwise around until the "S-" lines up perfectly (it will be firm to turn, but you should be able to do it using your fingers on the cam). Then turn your water back on and see if the pressure improves. Don't forget to put the motor back on after you're finished. If this isn't your valve, then nevermind. :p
If the unit is producing soft water, and you can live with somewhat lowered pressure, then you may just have to live with it. If it's the above valve, you can download some good repair documentation for the system, in case you want to poke around it yourself. I certainly wouldn't pay anyone to "fix" it again.
Do you know what kind of valve it is? There's a valve commonly used on Kenmore, GE, and other cabinet models manfactured by Ecodyne. Go here and find the "deluxe valve" animation:
http://www.kenmorewater.com/animations/product-animation/index.html
When you get to the valve, click on "overview", and then "next" and it should show you the "Valve Position Indicator." On this valve, if you look directly down on it, there should be a hole in the motor mount where you can look through and see an "S" on the metal cam with a line next to it. That line should line up exactly with a ridge on top of the plastic "to drain" area of the valve. If the line is off by much, then it's possible your not fully in service mode. If you think it's not lined up, put the unit bypass mode (or cut off water to it) and take the motor off the unit. Then turn the cam clockwise around until the "S-" lines up perfectly (it will be firm to turn, but you should be able to do it using your fingers on the cam). Then turn your water back on and see if the pressure improves. Don't forget to put the motor back on after you're finished. If this isn't your valve, then nevermind. :p
If the unit is producing soft water, and you can live with somewhat lowered pressure, then you may just have to live with it. If it's the above valve, you can download some good repair documentation for the system, in case you want to poke around it yourself. I certainly wouldn't pay anyone to "fix" it again.
Gary Slusser
02-03-05, 07:42 AM
"I did recently bump my pressure up from 30/30 to 40/60,...."
And exactly how did you do that; step by step?
Wha ttype of pump; submersible or jet?
How old?
Has anyone checked for full flow through the by pass valve? Through the control valve?
Gary
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Company Name Removed Only
Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
And exactly how did you do that; step by step?
Wha ttype of pump; submersible or jet?
How old?
Has anyone checked for full flow through the by pass valve? Through the control valve?
Gary
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Company Name Removed Only
Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
Hart
02-03-05, 02:59 PM
That should have read "....from 30/50 to 40/60".
I adjusted the pressure at the switch in front of the pressure tank in strict conformance with the step-by-step instructions outlined in several posts on the well bulletin board. I adjusted the air in the bladder, etc. and watched it cycle a couple times at 40/60. I'm pretty sure I'm safe with the adjustment.
The pump is submersible and is about 8 years old. As I said, when the softener is offline (meaning disconnected, because it doesn't have a bypass on it), and the line is reconnected, pressure is fine. I also had a well guy out, so I'm confident that it's not a well or pump issue.
I adjusted the pressure at the switch in front of the pressure tank in strict conformance with the step-by-step instructions outlined in several posts on the well bulletin board. I adjusted the air in the bladder, etc. and watched it cycle a couple times at 40/60. I'm pretty sure I'm safe with the adjustment.
The pump is submersible and is about 8 years old. As I said, when the softener is offline (meaning disconnected, because it doesn't have a bypass on it), and the line is reconnected, pressure is fine. I also had a well guy out, so I'm confident that it's not a well or pump issue.
Moli
02-03-05, 08:39 PM
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought your problem was that you weren't getting the same as your ORIGINAL (30/50) pressure through the unit as you were before it was "repaired".
If you increased the pressure (and flow-rate) through the system, your pressure-loss through the system is going to be greater. In other words, (entirely hypothetically) if you increase the pressure before the WS by 10 PSI, you may only see a 5 PSI increase in pressure after the WS.
All water softeners have some pressure drop, but with typical water pressure on a working system, most people won't even notice it. A typical pressure-loss for the newer mid-sized Kenmore systems would be around 15 PSI at 8 GPM. So don't get overly concerned with gauge-pressure, if the house water pressure is comfortable. If the pressure loss increases over time, THEN you have a problem.
If you increased the pressure (and flow-rate) through the system, your pressure-loss through the system is going to be greater. In other words, (entirely hypothetically) if you increase the pressure before the WS by 10 PSI, you may only see a 5 PSI increase in pressure after the WS.
All water softeners have some pressure drop, but with typical water pressure on a working system, most people won't even notice it. A typical pressure-loss for the newer mid-sized Kenmore systems would be around 15 PSI at 8 GPM. So don't get overly concerned with gauge-pressure, if the house water pressure is comfortable. If the pressure loss increases over time, THEN you have a problem.
Gary Slusser
02-03-05, 10:00 PM
Has anyone checked for full flow through the by pass valve? Through the control valve?
You say there's no by-pass on the softener but you also said "If the softener is bypassed, I have all the pressure I can stand, even through the 2 inline filters.". So do you have a softner by-pass or not?
Gary
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Company Name Removed Only
Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
You say there's no by-pass on the softener but you also said "If the softener is bypassed, I have all the pressure I can stand, even through the 2 inline filters.". So do you have a softner by-pass or not?
Gary
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Company Name Removed Only
Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2