Sagging Roof Ridge/No Eaves

[bobbyk2002]

I bought a small cottage that was built in the 1940's. A real "fixer-upper'. Over the years, the house has settled. I believe this is the cause of the roof ridge sagging in the middle. The entire attic at some point was also finished with knotty pine planks. It's a shame that the attic space cannot be used as a second floor. At its highest point near the ridge, I can just barely stand straight up without my head hitting the highest point of the roof. The house is really small and I would love to add a second floor living area (perhaps a bedroom or two and bath). That is an expensive addition, I'm sure. A few years ago, I hired a structural engineer to inspect and he certified that my house could support a second-floor addition. I would assume the existing celing joists would need to be beefed up or sistered with 2 x 6's instead of the 2 x 4's now in place. In the meantime, I wonder if its worth repairing my multiple roof/siding/window problems. I really need new energy-efficient replacement windows and some type of new siding. The windows and siding are in pretty bad shape.

Problem #1 - The roof sags in the middle and is noticeable from the street. Facing the front of the house, the roof is a flat plane sloping upwards to a continuous ridge that sags in the middle. Past the sagging ridge on the front towards the rear of the house, the roof has another ridge running perpendicular to the main or street side ridge. This roof configuration results in two side gables and one rear gable end. Each gable end also has a single hung window, I assume they were put in for ventilation. (I live in the South). Right now, access to the attic is through a disappearing attic stairway located in the center hall of the house.

My questions. Is there an easy fix to correct the sagging ridge beam? Can I gradually jack it up inside the attic and perhaps use 2 x 4's for support? What if I put a second floor. Can a new roof be builte above the existing roof, then after it is covered with plywood, tar paper, etc., the old roof underneath can be removed? This would of course correct the sag and also allow me to utilize the attic as living space, assuming I install a stairway.
I even had plans drawn up by a building designer and he recommended a camel back addition. Basically extending the roof from the front higher with a steeper pitch and adding on to the rear of the house. I would also need pilings driven to support anything past the existing house's footprint. One contractor said it would be very expensive to remodel, because they don't know what kind of problems they would encounter during remodeling. They even suggested it might be better to tear the house down and start new.

Problem #2 - (Assuming I fix the house up and not tear it down.) The house has no eaves. In fact the wood siding extends all the way to the roof's edge all around. There is no fascia board. I would like an overhang all around for protection from the rain and provide some shade from the sun. Currently, since I ripped the rotting gutters off the front of the house, water is now seeping down into the walls along the front since it is not a gable end and it is causing the insulation to get wet and the paint in one room is actually starting to blister from the moisture. I cut a hole in the sheetrock and pulled some of the insulation out and sure enough, it is getting wet. My question is, can I tear off the siding (since it needs to be replaced anyway) and perhaps extend the roof rafters all around to create an overhang or soffit? I believe they call them lookouts? I'm thinking of nailing or sistering the rafters to the existing ones to create the overhang. Is that an option? I also would like a front porch with a simple gable roof extending outward from the existing roof. This would give my front entry protection from the rain and add curb appeal. Since I removed the gutters already with the intention of replacing them, I had to slip some metal flashing above the front door to divert the water runoff directly over the front door when it rains. I definitely need new gutters. I've seen houses built without them, but I really believe they are a necessity especially with the amount of rainfall we receive here.

I love the area and do not want to move. It is convenient to my work and centrally located. Everywhere I need to go is only minutes away. The area is beautiful also. The housing market in this area is amazing. I paid $95,000 for this house in 1996 and today I can easily ask $165,000 basically just for the lot. A home equity loan would cover the refurbishing of the house. But like the contractor said, remodeling an old house like this is more expensive due to the uncertainty of what problems may be encountered. Other than the blistering paint, the interior of the house is in really nice condition. I did remodel the entire kitchen with brand new "everything" (cabinets, flooring, walls, countertops, appliances, etc.). But now the exterior cries for a fresh new look.

So, the major problems I have are the sagging ridge beam and the lack of a soffit or roof overhang. Should I attempt to have the exterior fixed up? Or take the advice of the contractor. Tear down the house and build a new one? I did find a great builder and have seen his work. He can build me a new house at only $75/sq. ft. and he uses quality material. He estimates to tear down would only be around $3,000 and it can come down in a day. If I built a house for around $175,000, a mortgage company told me I could easily ask $295,000 upon completion. Not that I would sell, but it seems to be a good investment. I still owe on the first mortgage, but they have a program called a one-closing construction loan. They would pay off the first, then add the cost of the construction of the new home and combine them into one mortgage. My monthly payment would almost double though. As long as I continue my current job, I would definitely qualify they tell me.

I apologize for such a long post. I basically had two questions but threw in all the possibilities. Anybody have ideas? I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Thanks

[Ed Imeduc]

I love the area and do not want to move. It is convenient to my work and centrally located. Everywhere I need to go is only minutes away. The area is beautiful also. The housing market in this area is amazing. I paid

You said it right there .Sounds like you will be there a longtime So, start all over with a new home here and be done witth it. why go on and on and just patch this up then that up

One contractor said it would be very expensive to remodel, because they don't know what kind of problems they would encounter during remodeling. They even suggested it might be better to tear the house down and start new.

He said it right for sure get 3 bids for the whole job.

Have fun ED ;)

[bobbyk2002]

You're right! I guess I needed a little push. I will probably be house poor for a while, but it may be worth it. Taxes will go up, insurance will probably go up, (or maybe not since it will be new). You only live once. I may as well go for it while I can. I gotta check bankrate.com and see where the interest rates are now. I could kick myself for not doing this when rates were hovering around the 4.0% to 4.5% range. Plus, since everything in the kitchen is new, the contractor will work with me by letting me use the existing (almost new) kitchen cabinets into the new house. It will be a great inconvenience, but it shouldn't take more than three to four months to build. The note would be a lot. So I probably won't be able to buy that HDTV I've wanted for awhile. Maybe Santa will be good to me this year :)

[Marshmellow]

A friend of mine bought a fixer-upper and I too. Now, my experience of trying to fix things as they come.

Home inspector said my place was great, only problem is the chimney may need to be caulked again.

After purchasing I DID NOT gut the place, but instead decided I'd fix the problems as I come across them and fix the place up. I found out:

Sewer pipe is broken under my neighbors driveway!? Had to put in a brand new one that doesn't go under their driveway and oh, to make pitch we need to tie in 50 feet down the road. Sewer pipe is like 300 feet long now, had to destroy the road in front of my neighbors house, and it was deep. Cost a fortune and my neighbors aren't happy!

So I thought, what would a broken sewer pipe do for damage to the house? Ah... the basement probably gets flooded with sewage. Coincidentally I noticed a lot of baseboards and panels covering the bottoms of walls and such in the basement. So, I removed them and holy cow! I ended up having to replace the bottoms of each and every wall & stud which was back breaking and pure hell!

Electrical panel had some "corrosion" on it that needs to be cleaned by an electrician inspector said. After getting an electrician he said there's no way he can clean that. I had to have a new service put in and new meter. Cost a fortune.

Furnace is a workhorse he said you shouldn't have any trouble with that. Two weeks after buying the house the furnace crapped out, took two visits and 3 weeks to get the furnace fixed. Not very nice in winter.

I have a plumber come in and he wants to take pictures of the plumbing to show homeowners should not do it themselves. I watched in horror as the plumber came and tried to fix one leak, but created two more, his pliers would frequently crush the pipe it was so thin. After 8 hours he left with 8 small leaks still going on but he was done. The previous homeowner had collected the scraps cut out from failed copper pipes from friends and family and evidently used them to fix his pipes when they broke.

The heating plumbing was done by the previous homeowner. It was a mismatched hodge-podge. Copper, to Steel, to copper back to steel. Expansion tank improperly placed, mixing valve wasn't trapped, if you don't know you can't connect copper to steel and have the final ingredient needed to complete an incredibly weak battery, water. Forms a sort of battery between two dissimilar metals and rapidly corrodes the weaker metal. You need die-electric unions to connect copper to steel to prevent that phenomena. Well, my heating system is failing at those joints of copper to steel and you see the results of those connections (green/blue corrosion gobs). Heating system mostly needs replacement now.

Decided heck with it, I'll replace all the plumbing. Main valve doesn't work, had to pay the city to shut it off to my house at the street while I put one in and then pay to have them turn it back on.

Went through 225 gallons of oil a month in heat for a ranch. Went in the attic and found some of the walls from the first floor didn't have a top. There was a direct path from the attic into the basement. Also a 3x4 foot hole I could look down and see the basement floor. Patched those up.

While up there noticed the previous owners had sealed up all ventilation in attic, probably in an attempt to reduce oil consumption. The result of which was the roof melting at 28 degrees outside and freezing at the eaves which weren't hot and causing ice dams and water damage to back into the house. *sigh*

Now we get to the roof, roof sagged 3", that's a lot! Home inspector tells me it's just normal wear. I straighten out the roof and I have to sister the 2x6's but what size rafter should I use to sister it with? FYI this is from my calculations which I believe are good but not scientific. Use at your own risk! Anyhow I went to the government site http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/reversecalc/reversecalc.asp to determine how thick my rafters should've been. In Massachusetts, snow load is 40psf, if you want 2 layers of asphalt dead weight is 15-20psf. Using it with a minimum deflection of L/360 (in my case because I have skylights the most I want my rafters to deflect under a full load is 5/8" I find out I need 2x12 rafters, when the house was built with mere 2x6's. But hey, want to know interesting stuff?

a 2x4 is 0% stronger than a 2x4 (a 10' 2x4 Spruce-Pine-Fir will bow 1/3" at 184 lbs spread evenly)
a 2x6 is 128% stronger than a 2x4 (a 10' 2x6 Spruce-Pine-Fir will bow 1/3" at 420 lbs spread evenly)
a 2x8 is 102% stronger than a 2x6 (a 10' 2x8 Spruce-Pine-Fir will bow 1/3" at 850 lbs spread evenly)
a 2x10 is 61% stronger than a 2x8 (a 10' 2x10 Spruce-Pine-Fir will bow 1/3" at 1,370 lbs spread evenly)
a 2x12 is 34% stronger than a 2x10 (a 10' 2x12 Spruce-Pine-Fir will bow 1/3" at 1,840 lbs spread evenly)

You'll have a stronger and stiffer roof with 2x8's spaced 24" apart, than 2x6's spaced 16" apart.

Doubling up two 2x4's isn't as strong as a single 2x6 (368 vs 420)
Doubling up two 2x6's isn't as strong as a single 2x8 (840 vs 850).
Doubling up two 2x8's IS stronger than a single 2x10 (1,700 vs 1,370) but not as strong as a single 2x12 (1,700 vs. 1,840)

From that calculator I found out I need 2x12's not 2x6's when the house was built (very common for houses over 30 years old) meaning my current rafters are less than 1/4th the strength they should be. Pretty scary stuff huh? I'm in little danger, wood has an amazing ability to flex, bend, etc. I sistered them with 2x10's every other rafter, then the ones I skipped I sistered them with 2x12's. Where my skylights are going I used either a 2x12 or two 2x10's.

Now, my friend who bought her fixer-upper in worse shape than me rented a garbage bin and gutted the entire house in a few weeks. She found chimneys burried in walls that you could just grab a brick and pull it out. She found the second floor support she could vacuum it it was rotted so bad, she had to remove all the floors because the previous owner was an alcoholic and pissed anywhere he lay. The addition he made he never flashed it to the main house, so water leaked between the addition and house for decades and rotted out another support beam. Also, the supports were resting on boulders, not concrete. She had to get a jack hammer and open her basement floor, dig 5 feet down and pour new foundation concrete footings. She also is putting on a 20x40 addition. She has a lot more to do than I do, but she'll be done with her place much faster than I'm done with mine. She also turned her place into an open concept because it was gutted so she could do anything she wanted. Why will she be done faster than me? I didn't gut my place. She has NOTHING in her way. If I want to fix the rafters I have to bring in each 2x12 through couches, tv's book shelves, doors, when I'm done bringing them in I have to move them all back. She has nothing in the way. I'm also living there, so everything I do I have to clean up immediately. If I'm doing a project, 20% of the time of the project is actually doing the project and 80% of the time cleaning, prepping, moving furniture, going slow and delicate to minimize damage... cripes I wish I'd never moved in there and gutted the place. Also, the longer the place was occupied by a carefree person the more problems you'll find. They tend to wait until the damage is catastrophic and there's no other choice, then they fix it in the most horrific and cheapest way possible, and then they cover it up! The longer they stayed there, the more of those you find. You have to find these problems because they come out in the most mysterious way and the previous people were very good at hiding them. You then must remove what they did, fix the problem correctly, and put everything back in. It's not uncommon to have a room done, and then because of some lame reason of the previous owner have to take it down and fix something and put it back together. Like finishing most of the basement and then finding out I have to replace all the base of each wall and stud in the basement because the broken sewer pipe rotted them all and the previous owner covered them up so I hadn't noticed it until I was almost done the basement! That happens with fixer-uppers when you don't gut them, also surprises happen everywhere... this is just my experience with mine and I fix them as I come across them but I know there's more hidden surprises for me but they're getting fewer as there really isn't much of the original house left besides the walls. You're best just out with the old and in with the new. You'll be surprised how much quicker things go that way.

Cheers!

[Ed Imeduc]

Like I said even on well built homes and in good shape they knock them down for the ground . It cost less in the long run as said in the last post here. To each his own :wall:


ED ;)

[Marshmellow]

Okay, I had to do some thinking because where I live the last thing you want to do is remove the old and put up new. It then came to me, Ed and I live in different regions (duh). Where I live the houses all have basements, they're large and two story. The ground is chuck full of rock and ledge here. I was thinking how expensive it would be to remove a house with a basement and put in your own, larger house and remove the rock for a larger basement. First off, in this area it costs more to have a house built than to buy a house only 1 year old. You can't blast, you have to get a crew with a big machine that just keeps pounding the rock to break it apart for a basement. You then have to have a new basement poured, then the new strict codes require you to have some serious structures (a lot of cash). Even if you kept the current basement you need to do a lot of work if you want a bigger house because you have to make deep footings and it seems you can't go 2 feet here without hitting a car sized rock. They key here is basement and rock which now that I think of it, many area's don't even have basements and the South from what I remember have no rock.

I saw a show of a house in the South their house just sat on a flat piece of concrete. They bulldozed it, and put another up on that same piece. I saw another house where they just had small foundation footings and rested the entire house on them. If that's what you have then by all means bulldoze it. Where I come from, bulldozing a house and rebuilding another as you see fit would probably cost you $300,000+ when getting a fixer-upper and gutting it and fixing it up would probably cost you under $200,000.

FYI in my area a 1,000 sq ft on 1/4 acre ranch sells for $220,000+.

[Ed Imeduc]

I have some lots on the lake up in Mo $200K just for the lot. So you see lots of times a good buypush the house over.Save what you can and put more footings in for a bigger home. ROCK I know rock, any home we build has a rock clause in the paper. Not to long ago took $16K just to get the rock out. for the basement
Im down here and yes no basements They would float away. like a pool here you have to have a pipe under the pool so you can pump out the water under it to drain it. this pump has to run the whole time the pool is empty. A round here FL. on the beach they knock over a $6M home just for the ground.

ED :wall:

[bobbyk2002]

Damn, I'm glad I don't live up north and have to deal with snow loads, basements, etc. It must cost you guys a fortune to build a new home. We can't have basements, they'd fill up with water in New Orleans. We did have a light dusting of snow around Christmas. I love the snow, but wouldn't want to live with it all winter. The only expense we have to add down here is our houses have to be built on pilings or else you'll soon find your house sinking in the muck below the topsoil. Plus you have to use plenty of fill dirt to raise your lot or build your house on piers due to the flooding potential. I live six feet below sea level. On piers, my house is three feet below sea level. Even with the heaviest rainfall, I've never seen the water go past the first step. We're protected by an elaborate levee system and one of the best pumping systems in the world. It would take a slow moving Cat. 3 or 4 hurricane moving up the Mississippi from the southeast to the northwest to empty the contents of Lake Pontchartrain into the city. That would be catastrophic. They predict the city would be inundated with twenty to thirty feet of water.

Anyway, barring a catastrophe, this house is so ugly, it was a rental and has layer upon layer of paint. The owners must have slapped on a new coat of paint every time a new tenant moved in. The outside porch was enclosed and made into a kitchen. The house looks very odd. I thought oh I can fix it up when I bought it. No problem. I'm very handy. But as soon as you start remodeling, you start finding major flaws. Parts of my plumbing is the old rusty galvanized steel pipes. The threads at the fixtures can't be touched or they'll disintegrate. I spent a few thousand dollars making the house livable, but underneath the skin, it has major flaws. I've never seen a house constructed this way. It was built in the forties. The celing joists all run one way until they get to about three feet from the outer walls. Then for some reason, the joists suddenly run perpendicular all around the outer walls. Weird.

I had a couple of contractors come look at it to fix the major flaws and they said we don't like to remodel, because we don't know what we'll find. They can quote me a price, but it would be subject to change depending on something unseen they might run across. With a new house, you pretty much have a firm price. I say tear it down and build all new and up to modern building codes since I plan to live in it for a long time. Even though things could change, I would have no problems getting my money back. Even if I built a $200,000 home, in this area, I was told I could turn around and sell it for $395,000 or more within a month easily. Location location location. That's why this is such a demand area. I was pleasantly surprised from a recent appraisal. As is, the house could sell for $170,000 - $190,000. In 1996, I paid $95,000 for it. Not a bad investment. It does have termite damage that I had fixed. The house had to literally be raised off the piers to replace an eight foot long sill. That was my fault for not having a termite contract. I think it is termite free for now. Then again, maybe I should let the termites have at it, it might save on demolition costs when I build the new house. :) I could sell and move, but I love this area. It is so convenient to work, downtown, shopping, and everything this city has to offer.

The trend in my area is tear it down and put up a nice big house. They were building houses so big, the district had to put height restrictions because they were overshadowing the "quaint??" 40's cottages. Pretty soon, the whole area will be new construction.