Precharge Bleeds Off

[jonfasch]

Per the well company I have talked to on the phone, I have a Monson? Head Well system. There is a buried tank about 3-4 feet from my well head with a 1-2 inch pipe coming out of the ground with an air charge connection on it.

I have not been able to get a precharge to stay on my system. Thus causing the well pump to cycle on/off when using the houses water.

After shutting off my well pump at the circuit breaker and letting all the water drain from the faucets in the house - I tried to put a precharge on my system. It initially charges, but then seems to drain off rather quickly. I can hear air escaping from inside the wellhead itself.

The well company says that since the tank will be excavated, and that the well is old (1974) that I should go ahead and put in a new well. Does this sound feasible? Can't they just stick a new tank in place? Are they issues with the Monson Head wells? Or are the excavation costs/tank/labor expensive enough to warrant a new well?

They also said I should put the tank inside the house. But the current area is very small and the current plumbing coming in the house comes in under a family room/deck/concrete pad. Is an underground tank replacement feasible in this respect?

Has anyone heard of a Monson Head well? Am I spelling it correctly?

Thanks for any and all help.
Jon

[nomind]

Hey Jonfasch,-"monson head well, buried tank" , sounds weird to me :eek:
I can't imagine why anyone would bury a metal tank, you have to know it's going to corrode sooner or later. This is most likely where the air leak is. Many of my clients have the tank by the wellhead, BUT mounted on a concrete pad and in an insulated shed. -I'm surprised the well company is suggesting a new well , given a few more facts , I'm sure there's a more reasonable way to fix your problem :)

[jonfasch]

That was my initial thought on that too. But I have no tank in my basement, no tank on a concrete pad or in an insulated shed. So, it has to be buried underneath where I put the precharge on the system.

I had used a metal fence post to poke in the ground looking for the tank and went down about 4 feet near the precharge pipe without finding anything there. It must be deeper than that.

[nomind]

This is really unusual, we need help :eek: .
your only real choice at the moment is to find this tank somehow and seal the leak. Next I would advise building a pad and shed and putting a new tank in it. - Of course, you cant do this till you find the pipes to the well and house. Can you see the pipe entering the well tube ?( should be about 3-4 feet down on what we call a Pitless connector).

[trinitro]

I have seen burried tanks...although they are not very often. One of them was at a farm. Building a shed may work in the south...but it's probably not the best idea in the north. You'd have to heat the shed all winter long... pretty expensive.

If the well is really from 1974 you probably don't have a precharged tank, but rather a "regular" tank. You don't pump air in that tank, you simply empty the system, open the "vent" pipe to allow air to enter, close the pipe then turn on the system. It's possible it may have a leak, but then then water will come out, and the pump will cyle by itself (with nothing running in the house). Is it doing that now?

If not, and the pump cycles a lot when running an inside load the pressure switch is probably defective.

Then again, I'm no well and pump expert... so you may want to wait for a real pro's reply.

[jonfasch]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure it's from when the house was built. And I have for the past couple of years been adding air to the system through the "vent pipe". The pump does cycle by itself every 6-10 minutes or so. If I shut off the water supply to the house, you can watch the pressure gage in the basement slowly lower as the pressure bleeds off.

I'm not for sure if I agree with the statement "If not, and the pump cycles a lot when running an inside load the pressure switch is probably defective." unless I just don't understand what you are saying. When I have an "inside load" on the system, the pressure gage rapidly decreases. When it hits the switch turn-on point, the switch activates the well pump and the pressure rises. The switch then shuts off the pump when it hits about 60 psi or so.

With a tank with no air as you described, what keeps the water pressure up and the pump not coming on everytime water is used in the house.

[jonfasch]

Just seen another post - "well pump turns on without water running" - which talks about the checkvalve leaking.

When I tried to pressurize my system the last time (Pump C/B off), a few minutes after I stopped pressurizing my system I could hear water running/spraying in my wellhead - then it slowed to a trickle - and my precharge was gone again. When I tried to repressurize I could hear the running/spraying of water in my wellhead, but I could no longer get it pressurized.

Could I also be having a problem with my checkvalve?

[Ed Imeduc]

Sure sounds like the check valve. When the tank is water logged or the blader shot in the tank. The pump will come on just as soon as you try to fill a glass of water. You need the air there to give it the push

ED ;)

[jonfasch]

At this point, I'm not for sure how deep my well is. But, where would this checkvalve be located - at the bottom of the well, in the middle of the well pipe, or ...?

And is this something I can easily change - I am mechanically inclined. But never knew much about wells until I started reading this message board. Do I need to pull the full pipe with the pump out to get at the check valve? ANd if so, how do I keep pulling it out without it sliding back in? From looking into the hole yesterday, I would say it is at least 50 feet deep.

[nomind]

Hi Jonfasch, did you look down the well tube as I suggested earlier ??? From what you say now it sure sounds like the pipe or check valve is leaking. There is always a check valve on top of the pump , and often another at the top of the pipe below the pitless. Either checkvalve OR the pipe may be leaking. well pipes often develop a longitudinal split. If your pipe (and pump) is on a pitless connector you will see a fitting down the well tube, usually 3-4 feet down. If it's a common pitless , you need a T-bar to pull it. This is a tool made of 1" steel pipe, generally a 4-6 ft section of pipe threaded at both ends, with a tee at the top and two 12" pipe sections as handles. Lower this to the top of the Pitless and screw it in,at least 4-5 full turns. Now make sure the breaker is OFF and disconnect the wires at wellhead.
Now you can lift the pipe and pump , there should be a safety rope if it's properly done. Have a buddy hold the safety rope as you pull the pipe up. the technique for this depends on the pipe, if it's solid pvc, it will almost certainly break off in sections as you pull it. If it's flexible pumpdrop then it will be easier and two people can pull it easily. Be careful not to kink the pumpdrop over the steel tube, and pull steadily till it all comes up. Noe you should be able to see any leaks.
keep us in touch :)

[jonfasch]

Boy, I really do appreciate all this info and how fast it comes in. Faster than the call I had into the plumber (2 weeks and still a no-show).

So I call a well digger yesterday and he shows up last night. Says my system is waterlogged and that I have a bladderless underground tank. And secondly that my tank must be leaking as the pressure bleeds off with the water shutoff to the house.

He explains the system, gives me some good info, and in the end I ask for an estimate to put a new tank with a bladder in the house and get rid of the outdoor underground tank.

He also said that my pipe coming out of the underground tank (currently a 2" tank pipe coming out of the ground about 3 feet from wellhead with a cap on it, a plug in the cap, and a tire nozzle in the cap to put air on the system) should have a vent hole in the cap. I was kind of confused on why there should be a vent hole in the cap and should of asked further on it, but didn't.

But, last night, based on my info from this discussion board, I:
1. Turned off the pump c/b
2. Opened a faucet in the house.
3. Blew air into the tank outside the house with a compressor until the air was coming out of the faucet.
4. Closed the faucet.
5. Closed the house water shutoff valve
6. Turned on the pump and waited.
Eventually the pressure built up, and I had water. Initially I had very low pressure, but this turned out to be the water filter which had been completely clogged with red rusty colored dirt. My guess that this came from completely emptying out the tank.

Now, for the last 12 hours, the system seems to be working fine, there is no gradual leak down of pressure as I had before. But, I am a little worried about the issue returning. But if it was just waterlogged, maybe that was my problem.