Need Help Wiring Ceiling Fan Switch

[AFVet]

Hello,
I am trying to install a wall control switch for my new ceiling fan. The wall box where the switch will go currently contains two switches - one that controls an outlet that we plug lamps into, and one that I am assuming controls the power to fan (I connected the fan to a box that had never been used before.

The fan has power, but the wall controller has no effect. I know the controller works because the first time I accidentally replaced the wrong switch! And the fan controller was turning off and on my lamp coming from the outlet, but when I switched them, the fan controller does nothing now.

I suppose that switch I replaced might not go to the outlet in the ceiling, but before I climb up in the attic and tear up all the insulation tracing it, I want to make sure I wired everything correctly.

The switch has two black wires and a ground wire. It simply says to wire one black wire to the incoming 120v power and the other one to the power going to the fan. Is that the red wire? In the ceiling above the fan I have Black, Red, White and Ground coming out. The black and red are twisted together and connected to the black on the fan, the white goes to the white and the ground connects to the green. In the switch box I have three sets of wires coming in. Two of them have Red, Black, White and Ground, one just has Black, White and Ground. All the blacks are twisted together, with another short section of black wire going to each of the switches. All the whites are twisted together, and the Red from one of them goes the switch that controls the receptacle with the lamps and the other Red is currently unused.

I connect one of the blacks from the fan controller to the bunch of blacks twisted together, then connected the other black to the unused red wire, then the green to the ground. Is that correct?

What concerns me, is even if that switch doesn't control the outlet I think it does, it should still be getting power, right? The reason I don't think it's getting any power, is when you push any of the fan control or uplight/downlight buttons, there is a little red light that should be coming on (like on the handheld remote) indicating a button is being pushed, but it never comes on....

Long Post, but I'm confused!

Thanks in advance,

Troy

[John Nelson]

Give us a complete inventory of the cables and wires in the wall box.

[majakdragon]

John,
I am not an electrician but it seems his post mentions or refers to a remote. Can you use a remote with a wall control switch?

[AFVet]

OK, I'll try... don't know terminology, I'm a computer guy...

Switch box has 3 wiring "runs" coming in: Two of them have Black, White, Red and Ground. The other one just has Black, White and Ground. All three of the Grounds (just copper wire) are twisted together, then one ground runs from there to both switches. All three whites are twisted together but not connected to any switch. All three Blacks are twisted together, then one Black goes from the wire nut to each of the switches. The second switch utilizes one of the Red wires, the other Red wire is just capped with a wire nut.

As for the switches, they have two screws on the left side and a ground screw on the right. There is a black wire that goes from the wirenut (that holds all three blacks) to one of the screws on the left side of the first switch, then terminates on one of the screws on the left side of the second switch. The ground is basically the same - one wire goes from the wirenut to the ground on the first switch, then terminates on the second switch. The only difference is, the red wire from the first "run" is not being used, and the red wire from the 3rd "run" is connected to the other screw on the left side of the switch (this switch control a wall receptacle).

Since the switch I am trying to install doesn't have terminals/screws (it has wires coming out), I cut the single Black wire and single Ground wire that was connecting the two switches, then just twisted together the three incoming black wires, one of the black wires from the new fan switch and a short Black wire from the Wall Receptacle switch. I did the same for the ground (cut out the single piece connecting the two switches, then ran the Green wire from the new fan switch and a piece of copper wire from the Wall Receptacle switch and twisted them all together with the three copper wires coming into the box). I then connected the remaining Black wire from the new Fan switch to the unused Red wire (coming in from the 1st "run").


Hope you can understand all that! Would be much easier if I could post a simple diagram!!

[John Nelson]

Pretty good description. Change the word "run" to "cable", and you'd sound like a pro.

You described two switches. But apparently, one of the switches only had one wire to it (not counting ground). Is that true? I suppose that this is the switch that doesn't control anything.

One wire on your new switch should connect to the black wire that was connected to the switch with only one wire on it. The other wire on your new control should connect to the red wire which was previously unused. Everhting else should remain the same.

At the ceiling, cap off the black wire and don't use it. Connect the black wire of your fan to the red wire in the ceiling. Of course, also connect white to white, and ground to ground.

Tell me more about this "wall control switch". Does it have a make and model? Did it come with the fan? What brand is the fan? I assume that the fan has no light on it. Is that true?

[AFVet]

OK. Right now the Red and Black are twisted together and connected to the black wire of the fan. I will take the black out and cap it off.

The fan is a Monte Carlo Arch, it has an uplight and a downlight and it came with the wall mount controller and the handheld remote. The controller has a slide switch at the bottom that says ON/OFF. And then a mini "keypad" that has "FAN - ON OFF LOW MED HIGH REV and UPLIGHT ON/OFF and DOWNLIGHT ON/OFF". I'm assuming this is the only part of the controller that will affect/be affected by the wiring is the slide switch. I think the "keypad" works off IR, like the handheld (because it has dip switches in the back you set to match frequencies with the unit on the fan), but instead of getting it's power from a 9V battery, it must get it from the 120 A/C?

What concerns me is, there is a red "transmit" light on the controller (just like on the handheld remote) that is supposed to light up when you push the buttons, but it doesn't come on at all - making me think the controller is getting no power....

[AFVet]

John - That was it! I untwisted the red and black, capped off the black and reconnected the red. Works like a champ! Thanks for all your help!

[majakdragon]

Guess that answered my question. Had read somewhere that you could not use a control switch WITH a remote control. Learn something new everyday. Thats why I am here at DIY.

[John Nelson]

If you buy the high end fans, you get more options.

[AFVet]

Once again, I really appreciate your help. I just moved into this house and this is the third ceiling fan I have put up, but the first one that gave me "trouble". It looks great and runs great now!

When you have a minute, could you explain to me what the red wire does, exactly? Or more specifically, why some cables have just the black (hot?) and white (return?) and others have the red?

The reason I ask is, on my other two ceiling fans, they were both wired with the red and black twisted together and they both can be turned on/off by a standard light switch on the wall, yet with this last one I had to cap off the black and only use the red. Why is that?

Troy

[John Nelson]

The red wire can serve many different purposes. One common mistake is to see a red wire and assume that they know what it is. The code says that any color except white, green, gray and bare can be used as a hot wire, but assigns no particular meaning to any particular one of those colors (actually, in certain limited situations, remarked white and gray can be hot, and in even more limited situations, other colors may be neutral).

Having said that, there are a number of conventional uses for the red wire. We can never be sure, however, that whoever wired a particular circuit followed any particular convention, since conventions are not mandated by code.

Here are some common uses of a red wire in NM-B cable: As a second hot in a 120/240 circuit such as a dryer circuit. As a second hot in a feeder (cable feeding a subpanel). As a traveler between 3-way switches. As a switched hot in a cable where you want both a switched and unswitched hot. This is your situation. Although it is conventional to use the red as switched and the black as unswitched, sometimes a person may choose the other way around. As the switched wire for a ceiling fan light, where the black wire is the switched wire for the ceiling fan motor. As two out-of-phase hot wires in a multiwire (aka shared neutral) circuit.There are more, but that's probably the most common ones.

When you connected the black (unswitched hot) and red (switched hot) together, the unswitched hot trumped the switched hot and you ended up only with an unswitched hot. That's why your fan was always on and did not respond to the control.