Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - new ac/heating system

? had a new heating system with central air installed.
Had to call installer back to check a/c system and
furnace. ac wasn't working...furnace making buzzing
sound. Installer came and put r22 in a/c...also put
new board in furnace. A/c still not working...not
blowing fast, or cold...house is heating as day goes
on...pipe is icing up and condensation is all inside
furnace...not sure if condensation pump is working
right...second pipe is touchable...I thought it was
so posed to get hot as it returns? Does system
need to be bled? Not familiar with heating and
ac systems.

You have lots of ifs here. You say brand new. Call them back and get them to go over it and fix it . Ice sounds like you lost the freon again.The big line should be cold and wet when it runs. The small line warm . From here I would say leak ,leak, big one . Make them fix it now. Did they put a vacuum pump on it when they put it in also? ;) ED

Thanks for replying Ed...do you really think it's a leak due to
heavy frost on pipes? This guy has been back twice and is
getting on my nerves and I am on his! This system is only 6
months old! The ac is on 70 but house temp is 90! system
ices up real quick...temp outside is 85. A/C goes on, but ends
up frosting whole pipe right from a/c to furnace. Too hot
to deal with this joker... :confused: :confused: :confused:
Paid for it...just want to work right!

As Im not there and see it ITS hard to say. But get him back there and fix it. I think from what you say its low on freon are there can be some so called contaminate's in the system. Id also call the BBB and turn him in .;) ED

Unfortunately, many Plumbing & heating companies think, AC people put pipe together, I can do that, they wire, I can do that, so I must be an HVAC tech. The next day they have frosted letters on the truck!
Call the owner, and have him come to the house, and explain why he would send the same tech back when it's clear he's confused! Have the salesman there too. Its not a loss of charge...because you would have a high superheat till the coil froze a big block of ice. I think you have an airflow problem first of all. There also sounds like a problem with the metering device. With American standard and some Tranes... they have a plate missing that recirculates cold air in the air handler if you don't know about it. unless you know what to look for this can easily get by you. This is a space for electric strip heaters. Do you have a good steady airflow out the registars?

ac tech is owner subbed from keyspan i do have american standard furnace he says if ices up again he will cut another opening for air flow in furnace i called him again in afternoon this man dont call back i also see your from ma me too wareham wife calls keyspan has to go down line to get person for answers he never calls

Your going to need a piece of sheet metal about 6"X18".... Yes this looks like a good size hole. I don't know why they do this but it's common. Remove the panel that has the electrical controls in it. This is the panel opposite the end where the air filter is. You will see the blower assembly. Up near the top you'll see an open slot where the strip heater goes. with the unit running you will feel the air blowing out of it and getting recirculated.....its basically going in a circle. cut the metal strip to cover this slot and screw it on....you won't believe the air that will come out the registars now. Print this out and have the tech do it if you want...

i have american standard freedom 90 furnace upflow return duct is 8in on right side no filter at return filter on bottom control board which was replaced already in same service compartment above that cube is incoming wires and small fan assembly which has med to heavy condensation on and coming out of tube all inside furnace has same condensation i really dont want to play around with furnace for not to void warrenty or myself by the way want to thank you for advice and responding to my nightmare should i wait till my installer does hole as he said when he was last here or hire different ac co to repair whole problem and seek legal action against him and ks co

Did I read you right???


You said you had 8" return on the side of the furnace?

WOW!

That's the problem. You are NOT getting enough air flow for the return! Also you must have an air filter!

I think a judge would say you didn't give him the oppourtunity to correct the problem. If he doesn't respond to fix it, get another company to fix it, and take him to small claims court. No lawyers are involved, and over the same day. Document everything, and bring it to court with you. Get a witness if you can also.
What is the model number of the outdoor unit and the sixe of the return duct and the supply duct?

I meant SIZE
sorry.........

Hi Jay! Yes it is an 8 inch! I took bottom panel off...taped
service switch so system would work, and WOW what a
difference! From a whisper to a wind storm!!! Thanks
a lot!

hvac01453 asyou read to jay what a differane you guys are the best i think i shall put soffet vents i havent put up yet ifigue 2 4 buy 10 in should do 1 on 8in return metal and one on opposite from intake so far no freeze on pipes or much condensation just whats left in system dont care about speeling im not too hot either going to check periodically for any problems before putting in vents again thank you guys or girls wife thank and kids thank you will let you know how it comes out

don't let the air get to your cooling coil without being filtered, or your problems will be just around the corner.....did you check for that missing piece of metal? You still didn't mention the model # of the outdoor unit...so we can tell you what size the duct needs to be...

model of ac is goodman ckl30-1e 10seer cant see opening your talking about conden is coming out of furnace from top tray under ciol dosnt seem to drain have conden pump external found pipes going in went to bottom of pump i cut pipes just enough to just hang inside pump to see if that would have anything to do with back up of water do you think installing the soffet vents on side and return pipe will give me my airflow without leaving front panel off also ac on all day house is cool but ac didnt shut off at all to rest is that norm? thermastat hasnt moved past 80 degrees any clues

what size filters should istall and where like i said 8inch return and posible 4x10 screened soffet vents

Where is your furnace located?

if it's in the basement, make sure you are making up for the air that it's pulling out of the basement.

I would get another company in to fix your "mess" that been made by the other dealer, and take the bill to the bad installer to pay for the "damange"

For now, I'd just get a filter that is big enought to put in front of the opening of the cover that been removed untill you have the right sized duct work installed, with a filter slot.

a.) Make sure you have the correct panel opened. The panel you have remove must be BEFORE the coil and have a filter in place of the panel temperarily...
b.) The condensate problem is because the installer is actually a stock boy for Quicky Mart ...Install a trap of at least 3 to 4 inches deep.
c.) Call in a professional to fix this an have it seriously evaluated. I think there are more problems you might not see. I'll bet he never pulled a deep vacuum on the system....result....premature failure of the compressor...copperplating or acid burn-out from non-condensables.
d.) File a petion to small claims court, and get reimbursed for what it cost to get in a real tech, ...not a shake and bake!

Have you read the proverb at the end of my reply's section??? isn't it true???
;)

are you availible in wareham area sounds like your truly skilled in this field answering my problems and diagging my system without even seeing it you really should see his slop also if not do you know anyone honest in my area who can look and laugh or hang head in disgust what would having entier job looked at cost around dont have anymore funds he told me sat when he put freon in if see frost to call monday i called sat afternoon no call back monday wife called in morning left message not answering call he knows who was calling didnt call back wife again called at 6 pm still no call back hes avoiding us tomorrow calling keyspan cust service the overseer of subcontractors and if not resolved 1 more time calling licencing board and seeking legal counsel what do you think

Yes call the board now . Also call the BBB there and see what they say about this company you have doing the work. Also see if you can get hold of the EPA there and see if this guy has a EPA licencing for freon.;) ED

I'm a good two hours from Wareham. My Boss doesn't mind helping the neighbor or family member, but thats about it!..But your Idea sounds like a sound one. Keyspan refered him, make them fix it. or check the yellow pages. If you get a beeper or answer machine during normal hours, or a company that has no lettered trucks, move to the next. Look for someon thats been around for a long time. If that doesn't work Johnstone Supply in Bridgewater might know of a customer that could help you. 508-279-1661.

wife called him again guess what she got no answer or call back i guess his policy is put in scram ho on thier own to get fixed so far wife with asthma bad son same both suffering bad with this heat my temp repair helping but not the way to live it got letter from keyspan on converting to gas also customer servey on saticied with convert and installers professonalizim lmaf wife got keyspan marketing only one who calls back she cant do anything wf calling contracter overseer then licenceing board if overseer gives her brush off i dont want installer back at all i want her to let them know ididnt know anything about his work or what its supposed to look like when finished my fault but talking to you guys i realize this guys a you fill in blank wish you can see this job Question are exhaust vents for water heater and furnace coded 4feet from any windows you guessed it not im sorry you cant come will have wf call some #s and your # in bridgewater ?#2 does keyspan them selves do any repairs/installs or is it all bs will let you know what comes out of phone calls tomorrow

He keeps putting in freon you're going to lose that compressor.

ac when put in no freon wasnt cold at start up then dumdum put it in its getting to that stage whem i have this whole systen removed i would have left origenal propane heater in trying to patient but running out

Call the BBB and see what they can tell you about this company and what they say you can do there ;) ED

In order to install this unit, It was supposed to have been issued a permit by the town/city hall. Call the town/city hall and ask them who issues permits. Talk to the inspector and have him come down to inspect the work.
If you paid for this by credit card, call the credit card company and refuse to pay for the bill. They will issue a dispute of payment and automatically get the money back till thew dispute is resolved.
Get the inspector involved...I'll bet he has no CFC licence. Nobody's this dumb. Where did you find this guy anyway? It will cost you about $25 to file a small claims court summons and you'll get your money back. Tell the judge you want it repaired by a qualified tech and get 3 estimates for the repair. He will get your money back. Usually when he gets a summons to appear before court, he takes care of the problem. Do you have a digital camera to take pictures of this and post it on the web? What country are you from?
:(

calls made licence board keyspan consumer afairs office not one call back yet in process of getting estimates tomorrow do not want this guy even near here calling town hall about permit if pulled and who inspected im in work on road all day so wife trying calls between 4yr old twins and two other children as for what country im from its THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA i dont understand why you ask that question i dont want to take wrong way trying going to take pitures on sat of duct work furnace vents water damage to furnace i havent told you i live 35ft from gas supply lines hows that for living dangerously

I don't mean to be insulant, but Your grammar appears to be as if from a foreign country, and many times the justice system tends to give that little extra effort of behalf of the immigrant, which in this situation could be in your favor! My wife is Korean and she notices this all the time...
PS My cousin lives on Fearing Hill Rd..................

im not one who can type just a working stiff playing on computer sorry if grammer offended you lets put it behind and get to my new info wife has giving me 1st still no calls back but found out by mother inlaw a retired vip up knows me from old neighborhood he lives in florida and comes back for visit in summer . anyway to the point wife called him at home gave story to him. his reply was just had lunch with another vip will call him with same story and hopefully the ball shall roll in my favor he says exactly like you and jay said about return its too small , just from discription of job he says its a hack have a good weekend and hopfully will have news buy next week

kvn4: Dude, End your sentences with a period and begin new sentences by capitalizing the first letter of the word in the new sentence. As it is, your typed prose makes us think you're on crystal meth or a stark, raving lunatic. Get with the program so we can help you in a constructive way. ----Regards, ---Bill

Reading thru the posts I see that you had a furnace removed and new furnace/a/c system put in? In other words- you didn't have cooling before? If that is true, then most likely the ducting is sized for the old heating system requirements. Usually, with add on cooling jobs, we find that the ductwork is too small for cooling airflow requirements. My 2 cents worth is that whoever sold the job should have evaluated the ductwork. The installing contractor should have checked the ductwork and stopped the job if it was inadequate. It sure sounds like insufficient airflow over/thru the indoor coil is the problem and, like I said before, if the guy just keeps adding Freon to try to raise the operatng pressures/temperatures , that is a recipe for a premature compressor failure.

Dude I shall try and correct spelling also yes a raven luni from heating system. BigJohn Was no duct work in house .This used to be a cottage with 9 rooms in it. Heater was on one side of house propane ,in floor So whole system is brand new .Hows that for my gripe.

Like what has been said before. Go down to the city hall and find out who took out a permit for this job and when it was inspected and by who. :( ED

Once the inspector gets involved , this guy is going to loose his shirt on this job I'm afraid! I think he had no business trying to install AC, when it's clear, he has no training what-so-ever. He's a border line retard......correction, forget the borderline!
:eek:

Retired exec I told you about ,made phone calls to his contacts. Orders went down ladder and had overseer and his manager visit to see for themselves.Shook heads in disbelief, says job was shortcutted and return way too small. Contractor wouldnt answer phone when called,so overseer s manager called from non traceable number ,dont you know he answered 2nd ring.Was told to repair all on list THIS weekend.HE tried to get out of it but no good.So far its Sunday midmorn no show.Really hope he doesnt show up so can get gas co to do the right thing .Will update on Monday nite when get home from work.I love when hammer fallson these people who think to just blow people off after job is done.Hope to see butts and elbows this week repairing system.

Only the squeeky wheel get the oil. Keep up the pressure, don't let off.

Finding out this man does not want to come back.Will not answer phone calls from myself nor keyspan.Was told by keyspan he is no longer on referel list ,they keep telling wife basicly not there problem .Monday seeking legal advise for court action .Question, Im going to have to put a bigger return in myself,would a 14x8in rectangle return be enough for at least one of the repairs out of many.Or would a 10in flex duct be just as good.I have to get furnace working and ac at least.It will be a while for court . I checked ducting at home depot the biggest flex is 10in.Any advise will be very apreciated.

In that case, you'll need two more 10" return flex ducts. Or an 8X14 with a 10" round... this is what you get, with a friction factor of .10/100' of duct

8" = 230CFM
9" =310 CFM
10 " =400 CFM
12" = 680CFM
14" = 1000 CFM
8X14" rectagular =590 CFM
for 2.5 tons you need 1000 CFM toal return

without being filtered, your problems are just getting started.

Home is 1200sq ft single floor with 7ft ceilings,open space .Size is 48ft x 24ft,The 8in return is in middle of house with 2 return openings 4x10in,7ft apart.Do I need 3 -10in round or just 2 and split returns at that point.Need cheapest way possible till I get this mess straightend out,yes will put filter at return at furnace.Most of home is crawl space about 24x 30ft,the rest is small cellar.Holes will have to be knocked out of walls .

your total is fiqured at the return plenum at the air handler. If you put two 16" returns on a 10" flex you get only 400CFM...two 10" returns on a 10" flex gives 400CFM...one 10" return on a 10" flex= 400CFM...two 8's on a 10" flex=400CFM... one 8" on a 10" flex=230CFM...!OK? If I were you I would run 2 10" flexes in two different directions...at the end of each flex install a 10" tee and two 8X10" reducers...connect 8" flex and run this out to a 14X4 return grill at the end of each...thats a total of four return grilles. You'll need to be able to attach the two 10" take-offs to the return plenum...get out the snips. try get the ones with a stick on foam back if they are available. You'll need a tube of silicone too...to fill the gaps...your gonna be hating life doing this in a crawl space, unless your young??? If you have a cuss jar in the house your gonna be broke...LOL:p

Furnace located at end of house.I think I'll just do return right.Am thinking of a 20x12 metal trunk 24ft long with 3 - 10in flex for returns,one at each end of house and one in middle.Do you think that will do, going along center beam in crawl space.Also a 16x24 trunk comiming from furnace to return trunk so I can filter correctly. ? filter holder in furnace ,can I use those brackets for new filter without any problems?Going to try to order thurs as I'll be home.Any special names for what I need?Does return have to be insulated?Ohyeah not young but really dont mind getting dirty if it has to be done also at 6ft 2 in ya its a challange.lol Let me know if you that will fix my problem ,the size of the ducting.

as far as making the system work properly. But first....what is the size of the SUPPLY plenum duct work 12" BEFORE the first take-off?
You don't have to make a 24' trunk. A 20X10 would be more than enough, and only 5' or so to where you can attach multiple take-offs to secure flex to. Insulation isn't mandatory but it helps keep the efficiency higher....why cool the crawl space? Go

Three 10's would do fine!

Supply trunk is 8x16 insulated,the first take off is on trunk thats on furnace .All supplies [flex duct] are 6in. If you see this mess you'll say it looks like Dr Octopus from the spiderman comics.The way I figure it my branches would only be less than 5ft for two and about 7ft for other one.Now when you say a 10x20 trunk will do is that the one connected to furnace side and also for my return trunk?Gona go with the 24ft because have to go through wall in cellar,plus it will look like i know something about this stuff .Ill get more satisfaction having it look nice.? what would be a ballpark figure on cost of the 24ft metal duct,duct from furnace to duct,all reducers and bracket for new filter to slide into.You dont know how much I appreciate all your help and patients with me.THANK YOU

This is a metal box you make and secure it to the return side of the furnace. Don't overkill this! It only needs to be big enough and long enough to install some type of filter tray if you need one, and have enough room to attach enough flex collars (3, 10"). Now some bad news...The supply Plenum is too small as well. If when it does start, it will be rather noisey...Remember a 6" will give 110CFM, ....your goal is 1000 CFM...you'll need 9 or 10 of these@110CFM.
The octopus is common, as long as the connections are central in the structure to minimise the length of flex, and this will also keep the lengths about equal for distribution. It's the quicker CHEAPER install . If you don't have that many branches, go to 8" insulated flex on the additional needed. This may cut down on the number you need.
A lesson learned,...cheaper is not necessarily a good deal,...we all need to relearn this repeatedly, unless your rich. When I buy tools, my guideline is always buy the best, buy it once! There is no free lunch!

I may have discribed supply plenum wrongly.First ,furnace then a 24x24? duct .Two take offs on that,then the supply is 16x8 .Have a total of 11 - 6in flex branches throughout house.That 8in return has to go.Thats why Ill put 10x20 return and brnch off that ?If seeing only short runs of new returns could I use the 8in Ill be removing, or go with the 10in .Only going about 5ft on two runs and about 7 to 8ft on third one .

You can use 8" returns but you'll need a total of 5 of them.

by all means, use what you have on site first! Then add to what is needed to reach an accumulated total of 1000CFM

Ill stick with your first remedy,3-10in if thats correct.Going down to supplier tomorrow and order parts needed.After all in if I add 8in returns in a couple of rooms that sometimes have door shut would that have any changes for the bad. Thats down the road of course.

as long as you have a big enough return plenum (room) you can always add on more returns later if you need.
Now on the supply side....what is the size on the supply plenum (the outlet side) before the first take-off? If they have adjustable dampers, usually on the take-off on the main before it goes to the flex?

Hey been awhile. Put in 10x20 metal duct 20ft,ran two 10in flex rounds off that using the return vents cut by you know who.One run is about 3.5 ft, other is about 10ft. At middle of house. System feels good.Good suction at returns can hear it working.Seeing such a small run of flex do you think that will do job or do i still need more branches.Now my problem is condensation still coming from furnace.

the more the merrier...the 10" needs a fitting that will handle the CFM also...Its like attaching your vacuum cleaner hose to a straw...it will only pull so much air through it. There are many different registar grills with what is refered to as" net free air"...add a couple more on till you can barely hear it at the return grill. A good test is the delta T test...with a good digital HVAC type thyermometer measure the temperature before entering the furnace and drill a whole in the duct and measure the chilled air 12" or so from the coil...you should get 17-21F difference...check it out!