Designing Kitchens and Bathrooms - installing new bathroom basement

I had a ruff-in put in when my house was built for a 3 piece bathroom (drain pipes are sticking up thru the concrete floor)
Now for the shower or bathtub drain pipe, would there be an s-curve built into the pipe in the floor, if I have to install an s-curve myself above floor , it would require me to raise the bathtub or shower significantly , and it then becomes a concern over ceiling height clearance. Also does a vent have to be installed for the bathtub or shower drain. There is 2 pipes at the bathroom sink drain location, a black and a white , I assume one is a vent pipe and one is a drain pipe, which is which and how are they installed. Does this vent pipe vent both the sink and bathtub/shower. Any help or advise would be helpfull.

There should be a trap in the floor. You can check it out by pouring some water in the pipe, and use a flashlight to see if you see water in the trap.

By the way. "S" traps are illegal. Today we use "P" traps, but you don't care since I'm guessing your trap is already installed.

Everything must be vented. I'm assuming you see one vent pipe going up towards the roof. This probably vents everything.

I am also installing bath tub, sink and toilet in my basement. I have been given to understand that the three PVC pipes from concrete are properly preped with S traps and vented.

I am running into some questions myself. I have two inch drain pipe sticking thru the concrete floor for the shower. Do I need to break concrete about an inch deep around this two inch PVC drain pipe for the flange end to go over it? The shower opening is 4 1/2 inches. I did not find 4 1/2 flange with end of less than 2" that could go inside the 2" drain. I was told by Home Depot person that the plastic flange pipe needs to go outside the 2" drain pipe and glued. I am not convinced.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Nelson:
There should be a trap in the floor. You can check it out by pouring some water in the pipe, and use a flashlight to see if you see water in the trap.

By the way. "S" traps are illegal. Today we use "P" traps, but you don't care since I'm guessing your trap is already installed.

Everything must be vented. I'm assuming you see one vent pipe going up towards the roof. This probably vents everything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will do the water test on the bath/shower pipe. The bathtub or shower pipe is black. The larger toilet pipe is white, and the w sink pipes are 1 black and 1 white, which stick up out of the concrete floor by a foor or two. No telling how they are routed once they disappear into the concrete floor. I am not concerned over the toilet or sink traps as the toilet has its own trap and the sink is high enough to install one myself. I will be very happy if as people seem to susject that the trap for the bathtub or shower is in the floor , itv will make life much easilier. I just need more clarification on the white and black pipes coming out of the concrete floow at the sink location. I got perhaps consult with the sales office at the builder who built this house.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Suds:
I am also installing bath tub, sink and toilet in my basement. I have been given to understand that the three PVC pipes from concrete are properly preped with S traps and vented.

I am running into some questions myself. I have two inch drain pipe sticking thru the concrete floor for the shower. Do I need to break concrete about an inch deep around this two inch PVC drain pipe for the flange end to go over it? The shower opening is 4 1/2 inches. I did not find 4 1/2 flange with end of less than 2" that could go inside the 2" drain. I was told by Home Depot person that the plastic flange pipe needs to go outside the 2" drain pipe and glued. I am not convinced. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally would not be breaking concrete up , I suspose if you you know what you are doing , it can be done that way. I intend on intalling plywood to the floor of the bathroom area to whatever height I need to allow for the toilet flange or shower to easily go over it and become flush with the finished floor. Mind you I am not at expert at this , but perhaps sealing the concrete with concrete sealant paint before the plywood to reduce moisture might be in order, perhaps others more knowledgeable on this can advise further. I intend on installing ceramic over the plywood as the finished foor , with the plywood and ceramic , I would get at least an inch above the concrete floor to deal with the toilet flange coming flush with the finished floor.

Only the tub/shower drain has a trap. As you said, the toilet and sink traps are above the floor.

Yes, you may need to chisel out a little concrete from around your pipe to put the connector on -- no big deal. Don't put anything inside the 2" drain -- you need to preserve the entire 2" diameter. The guy at Home Depot is correct.

Doesn't matter whether the pipes are black or white. Black is ABS, white is PVC. Both are fine. Buy the right fittings and cement for each.

This means there are two ways the fibreglass shower can be seated in the basement.

1. Lay 1" plywood on the entire floor of the bathroom which will raise the floor and the tub can be seated with flange pipe going over the 2" drain pipe sticking from concrete.

OR

2. Chisel an inch deep of concerete around the pvc drain sticking from concret. Cut this sticking drain to the floor level. Place the shower over the drain with 4 1/2" to 2" flang already installed on shower. The shower will touch the concrete floor. The rest of the bath can be covered with plywood of desired height to install ceramic tiles.

I am not sure which of the above two is the right way. Yes concrete sealant will be helpful in both cases. It will not be easy to replace the plywood from under the shower if it rots over the years in the first case.

Any suggestions?

Okay, even if I were to go with the solution to build up the floor (and I do not advocate this solution), I certainly wouldn't use plywood! Use cement board instead -- at least it doesn't rot, and it will hold tile much better than plywood.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Nelson:
Okay, even if I were to go with the solution to build up the floor (and I do not advocate this solution), I certainly wouldn't use plywood! Use cement board instead -- at least it doesn't rot, and it will hold tile much better than plywood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never thought of cement board as a floor base instead of plywood, I will check it out. I first thought of plywood because I thought it was easy to cut and screw down, I am not sure how easy cement board is to handle, cut or screw/nail into or the weight of it compared to plywood, but if it means it will never rot then it is an option worth looking into. I would note though that bathrooms located on the main or second floor have a wood sub-floor under the finished flooring, therefore the same concern over roting would exist on other floors, and would be no different from the concern over roting of plywood on the basement floor. Water should only touch the plywood in cases where improper sealing,
grout exists on the finished floor, or a water drain , supply pipe leak, or escessive humidity possibly caused by inadequate bathroom exhaust venting. Sealing the concrete and possibly using a water seal even on the plywood might further provide protection to the plywood. However I will check out the cement board option.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Nelson:
Only the tub/shower drain has a trap. As you said, the toilet and sink traps are above the floor.

Yes, you may need to chisel out a little concrete from around your pipe to put the connector on -- no big deal. Don't put anything inside the 2" drain -- you need to preserve the entire 2" diameter. The guy at Home Depot is correct.

Doesn't matter whether the pipes are black or white. Black is ABS, white is PVC. Both are fine. Buy the right fittings and cement for each.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you saying that both the Black ABS and the White PVC, are both drains and either one or both could be used as a drain for a sink and none of the pipes mentioned are used for venting.
Perhaps I should mention that I live in Ontario/Canada , if it matters. I would assume plumbing procedures are pretty much the same on both sides of the border.


[This message has been edited by dkerr (edited September 19, 2000).]

If the pipe goes up, it's a vent. If it goes down, it's a drain.

Yes, cement board is a little harder to cut than plywood, but it still pretty easy. Wood is used as a subfloor upstairs because it is needed for support. But in the basement, you have no need of that. But basements have an additional hazard in that you can get water both from above and below. There's no such thing as complete sealing of concrete or wood.

I researched further on this issue. I am going with nothing on the concrete floor. No Sealant even. I will lay the shower on concrete. In rest of the area I will go with ceramic tiles. Even the Linolium tiles with proper glue will be fine on the basement concrete floor.

I found a flange that goes all the way over the drain to flush with floor and shower. It was easy. It is better to tile the floor before installing the toilet and vanity.

I am in Michigan. I need suggestions on installing toilet over the concrete floor on PVC 4" pipe.

I must say that this forum discussion has been a great way to seek information and ideas. One question, subs mentioned that he was not going to use a concrete sealent, was there a reason for that decision ?

Also could anyone tell me the min. clearance between the back of the toilet pipe to the wall (drywall) required. I beleive on the toilet flange that there is screw holes that once the toilet flange is glued into position on the pipe , can be screwed into the floor. screwing into the floor could be somewhat hard into concrete. Will there be enough stalibility from the pipe alone with the toilet attached without screwing the outer edge of the flange into something ? Also make damn sure that the flange is in the correct position before glueing and that the bolt holes in the flange that bolt into the sides of the toilet line up properly. With the pipe cut close to the concrete , any error that necessitates cuting off the flange and doing again would almost certainly mean cutting into the concrete to get attached to the pipe again.

The minimum side distance allowed from the center of the toilet bowl to a wall is 15 inches 12 inches to a bathtub, and clearance from the front of a bowl to a wall or
fixture should be 21 inches.

I do not think you need to glue the pipe tothe flange. There are PVC flanges with rubber sealer that go inside the toilet drain.

I am not sure what we can do about securing the PVC flange to the concrete floor. Drilling holes in the concrete floor and scewing the flange is the only that comes to my mind. It is important to put tiles, before setting the flange.

Concerete sealant help in rotting the wood. Floor moisture will not harm the shower, ceramic tiles and even the self sticking linonium tiles installed with additional glue.