Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - something weny wrong

when i went to turn on a ac for the first time this summer it worked fine but the fan on the ac (outside) would not shut off, i had to turn it off from the main breaker.
yesterday i went to turn it on and nothing happened. i couldnt get the fan/heater/ac to come on but the fan outside was turning.
we replaced the old one with a digital one today and the same thing happened. the fan turned but nothing came on.
i went outside and noticed the pipes freezing over and the fan turning.
outside by the ac are 2 olddddd fuses, we are off to lowes to buy replacements and to check and see if we have the right thermostat, our old one had an extra wire. we dont have a clue what kind our unit is (we just bought the house). the old thermostat had honeywell on it so we bought one that said it worked with honeywell.
what else should we check?

Does the compressor run and the fan run on the outdoor unit?
If that happens and the indoor fan does not run ten it will ice and it may do compessor damage.You could be floding the compressor with liquid,which is not good.
Is the outdoor unit sound loud?

Hello Mary. Welcome to the Heating & Cooling forum & the Do-It-Yourself Web Site.

"My Two Cents."

Depending upon what you mean by "Just" purchased the house, you may have some recourse for repairs. Most states have a law which provides follow up repairs to major appliances for a set period of time after the sale.

To inquire contact the R.E. agency if one was used or the bank lender. There may also be a buyers protection policy in force.

Often purchased by either the seller or buyer, if a presale inspection was done. If so, contact the policy providing company.

Resident heating professionals replying within this forum, may have alternate solutions, suggestions, opinions and or test and repair methods. Check back on your question several times for additional replies.

If you need further assistance, use the REPLY button to add any additional information or questions, etc. Using this method also moves the topic back up to the top of the list automatically.

chelmace:

You may have bought someone else's headache if you havn't used the a/c yet.

It would be a good idea to get a qualified and competant a/c serviceperson to check this for you.

If you have any recourse with warranty as Tom suggested you will need a diagnosis from a legitimate company.

when we took off the old thermostat we had an extra wire (x2) we couldnt find anyone at lowes that knew anything. do anyone know what that is?
we replaced the old breakers outside and it still does the same thing. if it is the compressor will that prevent the fan from coming on and the heater?
nothing in the attic is working, should we pull the cover? is there a reset switch in that unit? i think we have forced air. is there any book i could buy to learn how to work on these things?
when i said we just bought the house i ment like 9 months ago. it has been nothing but a wreck and to think we paid someone to inspect it.

You certainly can get books to help you troubleshoot your problem but unfortunatly the learning curve can be quite steep if you do not have an understanding, in both safety and practical of electricity and electrical troubleshooting.
Not to be jugdgmental but if you only "think" you have a forced air system then I'm inclined to think that it may take you longer to learn the ropes than you may have the patience for.

As far as the extra wires go you havn't really told us anything about your system.

If you go to this link, what we need to know is there as well as some links where you can learn about hvac:
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122673

i am sorry, i have not told you much about what i have because there are no markings on the system. here is what i have the ac unit is outside and the heater is in the attic, its self contained. nothing is coming on in the attic, however the ac fan is spinning and the pipe leading into the attic is freezing over.
there was a honeywell thermostat on before (mercury). we replaced it with a hunter digital because when i went to turn on the fan the other day nothing happened.
before when i turned on the ac it worked fine but would never shut off outside however it would shut off inside.
AND when i would shut it off from the main breaker i could still get the fan and the heater to come on. now nothing is coming on.
to be honest, i dont know anything about this but i always like to try, that is why we started with the thermostat first.
where should we look from here?

chelmace:

What ever problem you had may have been compounded by installing the wrong thermostat and/or not putting the wires in their proper location.

Go to the furnace and mark down the terminal id and which color wire is connected to each terminal.
Then go to the thermostat and make sure the wires that are connected at the furnace match the terminals at the stat.
If you have different terminal id on the stat then you may have the wrong one or you need to use the schematic that came with your new one to figure it out.

This is the extent that you can go on your own and if you still can't figure it out you will have to bring in a hired gun.

What colors do you have coming out of the wall to connect to the thermostat? If the fan in the attic doesn't run, you most likely screwed up the wiring....Normally the red wire goes to RC the green wire to G and the yellow wire to Y, if you have wires with colors other than this available, you will have to go to the attic unit (air handler) and remove the side panel to see what the thermostat wire is wired to in terms of color coding...you will most likely have only two wires connected to the one that goes outside, the other one will have more than two wires hooked up. FYI... Most units have two thermostat wire bundles connected to the air handler...one to the thermostat (minimum of three wires hooked up), and one to the outdoor unit ( usually only two wires hooked up). If you have a furnace or boiler the primary control will have two T terminals, there might be an R, B, W or C...thermostat wire is easily recognized by its outer shell covering and thin wires...:o

thank you for the replys.
we will go into the attic later and check it. our house was built in 1979 by a family. i think in later years they installed the ac and heat. so things around here are not like normal homes.
my better half is scared that if he does anything in the attic he might burn down the house. i, on the other hand, am more than ready to climb up there and try to figure it out myself. i am so happy for this site, its very helpful for people who have no idea but want to learn, thank you.
if it were up to me i would never turn on the ac, i hate it, but my family thinks the tennessee heat is too much.

If it's running outside and freezing up you need to confirm the indoor unit runs. either put the stat to off and fan switch to on or if you've had the stat off already just jump R to G and the indoor blower should come on. If it does check for a dirty filter other than that there's not much you can do. If the blower does not come on there are several things that could cause this and you will be better off in the long run to have a service tech take a look at it.

what do you mean by jump r to g? are you saying to touch the wires togeather?
please keep in mind everyone reading this problem i have that i am a women and do not know jack about this stuff. however, i would rather do this myself than to call someone who will come into my house and hit on me then charge me 10x more than they would a man (this happened to me with a broken water pipe).
if anyone could recomend a book which explains the ends and outs of heating and air i would be very thankful.

thanks

The wire colors will explain more things than terminal designations. Jump means to connect using a short length of wire, usually with an alligator clip on each end. To remove the panels on 90% of all the units, it requires a 5/16" or 1/4" nut driver a socket will work as well. Lets first see if the fan runs in the air handler. We can't do anything till we know all the colors of the wires (connected or otherwise) in the thermostat wall cavity...This is the starting point, and most easily done.;)

chelmace:

Your description of being hit on and overcharged tells us a lot.
This shows that your biggest problem with having your furnace repaired is a lack of trust and confidence in the people you hire.

You could conceivably learn enough on your own to make these repairs on your own. You must keep in mind though that the people offering you advice here have taken years to learn and do this work on a daily basis. We sometimes tend to oversimplify things.
You can't diagnose these things by just looking or wiggling something. You need to have a basic understanding of the principles of electricity and to know the safety side as well. You may have to test this stuff live!
My advice to you is to spend your time looking for a competant and trustworthy serviceperson that gives you the respect you deserve.
I have a small business but in your case recommend you try a larger company where the person coming to your door has more than just you to answer to.
Also, call around and ask questions about their service, charges, how many employees, etc and try to get a feel for the company through their dispatcher. Not always but maybe a polite and courteous dispatcher will mean a polite service rep.
Try to find out what make your furnace is and look for a factory authorized company. Not one that repairs all makes but one that is listed in the equipment literature.

I hope this helps.

If you still want to slug away at this someone will try to help you but untill you get a bit of electrical knowlege it's gonna be tough going.

here are my wire colors:
white, which is connected to g
yellow, which is connected to y
we had a w2 which was blue and a w1 which is white
in our old thermostat the w1 and w2 were connected but in every thermostat we looked at there was no place for the w2.
then we have red which is hooked to r (which is jumped)
our old one has a lot more connections than the new ones do.
to the one who says i need to find someone i trust:
i live in such a small area. it takes 45 to the nearest anything.
there isnt a large company anywhere close to me so i am stuck calling small companies. let me give a an example:
we had a busted pipe under our slab in the bathroom so i called 4 people to come out. 2 of them wanted to bust the slab, 1 wanted to re-do the whole house and run the pipes in the attic, the last one wanted to just re-run that pipe and charge me over 1000. I...just me, did it for 3.00 and it took me a whole 30 minutes. i hope you understand why i am have not called anyone to come out. oh, here is another example: we had someone come out one time because our air flow was bad, they wanted to charge me 500 to clean it out, the going price is around 250 and these guys were through our home warrenty. i figured out the problem myself and fixed it.
i would rather go to school for this than call someone or at least know what is wrong so i wont get ..........

Hi Mary:

I hope you made a sketch of which color wire went to which letter terminal on your old thermostat. [the Honeywell] Now, take that piece of junk Hunter t-stat off the wall and throw it away. Put the HW back on and wire it the way it used to be. The extra wire, if it was curled back onto the cable, don't worry about it, it was a spare wire. Start your system , see what is and what is not running and post back. Thanks.

The Honeywell T87F is unsurpassed, your going to need the sub base as well. This would be the Q539 1147. This allows you the ability to use one thermostat for heating and cooling with a switchable sub base for the fan. You should only need these if you junked the thermostat. Have you looked at the air handler? How many thermostat cords did you see two or three ? The one with the most wires connected is running to the thermostat.:p

i called hunter yesterday, they had me touching this wire to that and so on, nothing happened. today, im going into the attic and taking off the cover that is connected to the filter duc. someone said it maybe clogged, hopeful its not mice although that would be an easy fix.
one question:
in the breaker box the only thing that is labled is the CAC, so what does the heater and fan run off of? we have 2 old fuses next to the ac outside (the kind that you pull out), is that what powers it.
anyone know what would be the next thing to check?

thanks

i spent the day getting to know my heating and air system. i guess alittle knowledge goes along way. i found out we had a heat pump and we need an atic fan ahhh i have a new respect for the guys that climb up there and do it.
after talking to many and reading a lot i have it narrowed down to 3 things. relay switch, capacitor (which holds a current), or fan motor. i am amazed at what i have learned in less than a week.
i understand now what most have posted here.
someone once taught me to start with the cheapest thing, im going for the relay switch.....any comments? would this be the first place you guys would start?
after this, i am thinking on taking on side jobs for all models built before 1980 something hehe.
i am so hell bend on fixing this myself, i should of been born a man.

A heat pump is a horse of a different nature! This will have a minimum of 3 or 4 wires to the outdoor unit. The indoor unit will have something like R, C , W1,W2, Y1 or Y, O or B, X. If the wires are disconnected at the thermostat, does the outdoor unit still run? :(

yes, and everything on that end works. it shoots it upstairs and inside the unit it gets cold.
after talking to a few people i heard that heat pumps....stink however, the wiring is simple.
also, one guy told me the relay switch is outside and marked on the panel. he said he is almost 100% sure it is that but i need to volt meter to be sure. im going to my favorite store today, lowes.
do you think this is a good place to start? i hope so because he scared me when he told me a story about a guy he was with that touched the capiacitor and got a very good shock.

Oh yeh! I got belted by a TV that stored the power (unplugged ) for 6 months and still got poped...AC units don't store power that long though you can get belted especially if after you kill the power you need to test it with a meter to make sure its off. I almost got hit with 460Volts because a cheap customer failed to replace a disconnect switch that was broken. He was aware of it too...so be careful. If you see a capacitor use an insulated screwdriver and short the two terminals together using the blade. If you have insulated needle nose, that will work as well. If the unit is running without anything connected in the thermostat, the CONTACTOR (contactors and relays are different) is welded closed. To confirm this, see if you have 24V to the coil, if you do, you have other issues. There should be no voltage to it. The relay on a heat pump on the other hand, doesn't operate the compressor, it opens a switch to the outdoor fan during defrost. Most all today are operated from a small circuit board. ICM is the common one in the field I see most of the time. I hope the thermostat you got does heat pumps, not all of them do! If you have a multipurpose type it will require moving a jumper pin most likely.
:rolleyes:

hey, thanks for the reply.
i want to make sure i have this right.
where would i put the tester on the coils? are you talking about the ac coils upstairs? couldnt i just check the contactor and see if its getting power?
could you maybe get started on writing a book, call it hvac for dummies? hehe

When I say the 24V coil , 24V is an indicator this is an electrical component (not a cooling coil). The other is that all switches need something to make the action, in the case of the contactor, the most common is the electromagnetic coil induceing magnetism around a soft iron core. This makes the iron shaft that goes through the center, attempt to align itself in the magnetic field pulling the shaft that has a spring attached to it. This closes the contacts that make the switching action. Similar to the Frakenstein switch in the movies but doesn't require the hand to make the action, and it's all covered up with plastic and made pritty. Its an AC circuit 95% on the time. Top see if the contactor coil is operating properly you will see two wires connected to the copper coil winding on the sides or top/bottom of the of the contactor or relay...not on the face of the contactor. The contactor may have a small face plate covering the contact points. Usually held on with two very small screws. One way to see if the contacts are welded is to kill the power to the air handler and the condensing unit. try to push on the contactor pins to see if they spring back and forth (in and out) making and breaking contact. Also, (with the power off) look at the contact plate, and set the meter to RX1, and place one probe on the power in side, and one on the power out side, (the one that leads to the compressor) the needle shouldn't move, if it does, replace the contactor.:cool:

has a book on heating and cooling that may even be available at the public library, if they don't have it, they can get it transfered from another library. It has a good bit of common things in heating and cooling but not the contactor. The Text book you would be wise to get I would highly recommend is called Modern Refrigeration and air conditioning by Althouse, Turnquist and Bracciano. The ISBN # 0-87006-642-0 , My copyiight is 1988 so things have change as far as refrigerants and recovery. Its almost two inches thick , full of pictures and diagrams, explanations, troubleshooting and the like. It between $50-$75, cheaper than a service call!....And you can use it in the future:cool:

im getting that book!!! i am sure most of the stuff will fly right over my head but after i read it 20 times something might stick.
one more silly question, where might i locate the contactor?
so its either the
fan
contactor (which someone told me awhile ago it could be)
capacitor
relay switch

one more thing, is it normal to see a bunch a gunk and mold on the fan? is there any way to stop that from building up?

Take back that Hunter T-Stat. Also make sure the wires are correct.
To check if you have the indoor fan wired correct turn the stat sitch from auto to on. If the indoor blower does not come on you have it wired wrong.

That stat has dip switches on the back make sure they are set for forced air furnace or electric.

It will be easier to call a qualified tech. I have seen to many people end up costing themselves a fortune with where you are right now.

chelmace:

I agree that you may be getting in over your head.

We have invested 26 posts on your problem and although you are gaining a bit of knowlege about your equipment, we don't really seem to be making any headway.
A big concern I have is that although you seem to be eager to learn, there is no indication that you are aware of the safety issues surrounding electrical troubleshooting.
Solving a problem by trial and error is one way of fixing something but in this case the safety side of what your doing is also by trial and error.

I would ask you to seek professional help at this point as I believe your safety is at risk .

i have followed this post and agree it is time for a pro. as gregh stated the lerning curve is steep, and even if you get it running it will probably need some fine tuning. electricity is nothing to play with, be careful if you get into line voltage troubleshooting. got any friends that are electricians? low voltage techs...PLEASE BE CAREFULL

[i]one more thing, is it normal to see a bunch a gunk and mold on the fan? is there any way to stop that from building up? [/B]

NO. The gunk is mostly dirt that was not captured by the filter. If the filter is loose in the filter frame, air (and dirt) can bypass the filter. Letting the filter get too dirty allows the fan to pull dirt through the filter. Running it with no filter is really gross. If the return air duct is leaky, as most are, air and dirt may be pulled through the leaks... it depends somewhat on where the filter is.

Mold requires dirt and WATER. Chances are the condensate drain is improperly constructed. If air is sucking through the drain, it will blow bubbles in the water backed up in the condensate pan. Remember blowing bubbles in your milk glass with a soda straw as a child? The bubbles break and splatter moisture around inside of the air handler and this water gets all over every thing in the fan compartment, wetting the dirt and soon you get MOLD.

Solution: fix air leaks and replace the filter often. Secondly fix the drain line. It must have A trap, it must slope at least 1/4 inch per foot, and it must NOT have any additional traps. About 1/3 of all condensate drains are incorrectly done.

Have the Pro check out the condensate drain.