Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - heat pump or Gas?

I live about 20 miles south of Atlanta, own a fairly new ranch style house on a basement and would like to know the advantages between a gas/compressor system vs. heat pump. The basement is around 1800 sqr ft. and I would like to be able to keep it comfortably warm (70-75) during the winter and about 68-70 during the summer months. Also...what is the best duct type to install (flex or solid) and why?

Thank

bverdon :

This would give you some idea as to the cost of running gas heat compared to a heat pump.
Plug in your energy costs and furnace efficiency.

http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

One advantage of solid duct is that there are no ridges to encourage dust collection.

Look at that www GregH gave you for the fuel cost. I think you will come out that you could put a heatpump on a gas furnace there.Where you are at. I would go for a seer of 12 to 14 on the AC and think about adding a heat recovery to the set up for free hot water.Do you really need 68-70 in the summer? If you get the right AC unit there you will feel good and cool at 75-78 when the home is dried out. Hvac4u can give you all the answers you need for there by Atlanta. Thats his location . For the duct work with a full basement go with the sheet metal duct and pipe for up and down;)

Static pressure is the difference between flex and sheet metal ducts. The ridges in flex ducts causes turbulance and it slows down the flow of air. This is taken into account when determining the correct duct size for either sheet metal or flex ductwork.

Gas furnaces are sized to heat your home based on the coldest day of the year in your area. So are heat pumps. The difference is that heat pumps cannot draw enough heat from the outside when the temperature drops below 30 degrees F. In order to meet your demand for heat, an electric heat strip comes on inside the unit. They are usually set up for auxillary heat too. This occurs when there is a demand for more than 3 degrees F. by the thermostat. Like when you go to sleep you turn it down and when you wake up it comes up to your desired temperature. Most manufacturers don't recommend programmable thermostats on their units because of this.

The electric heat strip is good if used infrequently, but becomes very expensive to operate if used a lot. Ideally you want the electric heat to be at the place of need, just like an electric resistance baseboard.

I installed a 12 seer heat pump with a gas furnace. In heat mode the heat pump runs above 35 degree outdoor temperatures and the gas takes over when it gets below 35. I had to install a "fossil fuel kit" which is a circuit board that controls the operation of the system, a couple of sensors (limit switches) in the supply duct, and a temperature sensor in the heat pump (to measure outdoor temperature). It added about $100 material cost to the installation.

go with a 10 seer heat pump. i have 3 heat pumps in my house from 10 to 17.5 seer. with a basement finish, a gas unit would need both a flue and gas line. a 90% furnace could be vented out the sidewall, but this additional cost plus running the gas line to the new location will incur additional costs. obviously the heat will be used more than the cooling, and you may want the gas, but in my opinion i would do the 10 seer heat pump, and ed has a great idea with the heat recovery unit, both reducing the cost of heating water and reducing operating cost of the a/c. they use them a lot down there in fla where he is, my dad has one down there and does not use the heating elements of his water heater all summer.

Originally posted by hvac4u
go with a 10 seer heat pump. i have 3 heat pumps in my house from 10 to 17.5 seer. with a basement finish, a gas unit would need both a flue and gas line. a 90% furnace could be vented out the sidewall, but this additional cost plus running the gas line to the new location will incur additional costs. obviously the heat will be used more than the cooling, and you may want the gas, but in my opinion i would do the 10 seer heat pump, and ed has a great idea with the heat recovery unit, both reducing the cost of heating water and reducing operating cost of the a/c. they use them a lot down there in fla where he is, my dad has one down there and does not use the heating elements of his water heater all summer.

Thanks everyone for the info. Well...I don't think that I will be heating my water with the heat pump (if I go that route) since that is up in my garage...and I don't think I want to bother with that.

I was thinking of maybe going with a heat pump system and also wall heaters to use for those real cold days (anyone have any experience with electric wall heaters?), but can the heat pump also be used to cool the basement during the hot summer months? What about humidity? It get's like 85% humidity down there and I have two portable dehumidifiers going all the time during the summer.

a properly sized unit will eliminate the need for wall heaters and dehumidifiers.

Originally posted by hvac4u
a properly sized unit will eliminate the need for wall heaters and dehumidifiers.

Is that with the exception of days when it gets below 35 degrees?

Also...will a heat pump eliminate the need for a compressor unit? Just don't know much about these areas. Just wondering if it would work to cool the basement in the summer time.
Thanks

bverdon wrote:
"would like to know the advantages between a gas/compressor system vs. heat pump."

I'm not sure if your question is understood.

I think you are asking for an opinion on the use of a gas furnace and a central airconditioner as opposed to a heat pump.
Is this correct?

If so then you will need to install a furnace of some type to move the air around and a central air unit to provide the cooling.
You have the option when choosing the furnace to select a heat source, either gas or electric.
When adding central air you have the option of getting a heat pump which will act as a normal central airconditioner in the summertime and then provide heat at a much cheaper cost than strip heaters when the temperature is near freezing.
The heatpump will shut down when the temp gets too cold for it to operate and the back up heat will take over.
Because the heat pump is sized for the airconditioning load, you are limited by this when selecting a size.

Is this the info you needed?

Originally posted by GregH
bverdon wrote:
"would like to know the advantages between a gas/compressor system vs. heat pump."

I'm not sure if your question is understood.

I think you are asking for an opinion on the use of a gas furnace and a central airconditioner as opposed to a heat pump.
Is this correct?

If so then you will need to install a furnace of some type to move the air around and a central air unit to provide the cooling.
You have the option when choosing the furnace to select a heat source, either gas or electric.
When adding central air you have the option of getting a heat pump which will act as a normal central airconditioner in the summertime and then provide heat at a much cheaper cost than strip heaters when the temperature is near freezing.
The heatpump will shut down when the temp gets too cold for it to operate and the back up heat will take over.
Because the heat pump is sized for the airconditioning load, you are limited by this when selecting a size.

Is this the info you needed?

Well...sorry...when you don't know enough about something, it's hard to ask an inteligent question.

I guess I should have started by asking what a heat pump can and can not do?

bverdon:

Did I answer your question?

A heat pump would be something that you would consider if you wanted central air.
If you live in a climate that is below freezing for a large part of the heating season then it would be used as supplementary heat.
The idea would be that it could be a good idea if you wanted central air anyway.
Your savings in energy will be proportional to the amount of time the heat pump would run which would be around freezing temps and up.

Before you do anything make sure you have enough available electricity going into the house especially if your planning on dropping in a 3 ton heat pump. Going electric is going to pull a considerable amount of more amps, so make sure you have enough juice (important). The benefits of a heat pumps(electric) though are advantageous. Although, I think, gas prices are still a littlt bit lower than electricity, gas prices seem to be raising constantly and I wouldn't be suprised if they are already almost neck and neck. With a heat pump, you won't feel as dried out in the winter and electric is noticeably cleaner air. Also years down the line an electric will not have any problems with carbon where as a gas furnace will. On another note, at time of install, if a contractor is used, the heat pump set-up should save you about $200-400 since the inside unit is much simpler, already comes with an evap. coil, and requires less time (generally) and material to install. If you decide to go with either dual fuel or gas, don't want to fork out additional dough on the onstart, and are alright with the looks, you could run your flue (80% furnace) up the side of the house or through a closet, but a 90% is far more desireable. A dual fuel (which is an outside heat pump used with an inside gas furnace) is good b/c below if temp is below 35 degrees the gas will click in as opposed to the dollar drinking heat strips. The question to ask is "how often do you think the Temp is going to fall that low. If it were, I'd stick with a 10 seer electric. It is the choice for finishing basements and dual fuel is only somewhat justifiable in Georgia. Besides-Why get fanciful when most of the time, I imagine, you'll be upstairs. Save your money and put a Hepa, uv, or air ventilation system up top instead.

A heat pump is a compressor; the difference between it and an air conditioning only compressor is a reversing valve that allows the freon to heat the coil (mounted on the supply side of the furnace (air handler) as well as cool it. Air from the air handler blower motor blows across the coil into your house supply lines. The valve is energized (or de-energized) when you switch from cool to heat mode on your thermostat. Therefore your thermostat will be a bit more complex than your standard heat / cool thermostat. When the temperature drops below a set point outdoors or when you turn the thermostat up several degrees above the actual house temperature, the heat pump compressor cuts off and your backup heat is energized. Your backup heat could be electric strips in your air handler (high amperage) or a gas manifold.

Originally posted by gsjusi
Before you do anything make sure you have enough available electricity going into the house especially if your planning on dropping in a 3 ton heat pump. Going electric is going to pull a considerable amount of more amps, so make sure you have enough juice (important). The benefits of a heat pumps(electric) though are advantageous. Although, I think, gas prices are still a littlt bit lower than electricity, gas prices seem to be raising constantly and I wouldn't be suprised if they are already almost neck and neck. With a heat pump, you won't feel as dried out in the winter and electric is noticeably cleaner air. Also years down the line an electric will not have any problems with carbon where as a gas furnace will. On another note, at time of install, if a contractor is used, the heat pump set-up should save you about $200-400 since the inside unit is much simpler, already comes with an evap. coil, and requires less time (generally) and material to install. If you decide to go with either dual fuel or gas, don't want to fork out additional dough on the onstart, and are alright with the looks, you could run your flue (80% furnace) up the side of the house or through a closet, but a 90% is far more desireable. A dual fuel (which is an outside heat pump used with an inside gas furnace) is good b/c if temp falls below 35 degrees the gas will click in as opposed to the dollar drinking heat strips. The question to ask is "how often do you think the Temp is going to fall that low." If it were I, I'd stick with a 10 seer electric. It is the choice for finishing basements and dual fuel is only somewhat justifiable in Georgia. Besides-Why get fanciful when most of the time, I imagine, you'll be upstairs. Save your money and put a Hepa, uv, or air ventilation system up top instead.

I am in Atlanta. I am not sure if it is okay to give access to a free quote (or if you are interested), but if so....please email me at: gsjusi1@msn.com

There were two reasons I chose the electric heat pump / propane backup heat setup. The first is that it is cheaper to heat with the electric heat pump than with gas when the temperature is above 35 degrees, but it is more expensive to heat with electric heat strips than with gas when the temperature falls below 35. The second reason is because I can still operate my furnace (thermostat set on emergency heat) with my 6000 watt generator during power outages. In fact, with gas heat and gas stove, I can run my entire house off of the generator with no problems when need be.

Thanks for all the help so far guys...it is much appreciated.

Another couple of questions...

What will a variable speed fan coil do for me?

According to this site, (http://www.acdoctor.com/enegry_savers/table.htm) a 12 or 14 seer system will buy me around $150-260 per year in cost savings vs a 10 seer unit...but the price difference in the installed unit is around $2200 (from a local installer). If I round the cost savings per year to around $200...it would take me 11 years to make up that difference. Are there any other reasons I should go with a higher seer unit?

Is Bryant a good brand?

A varialble speed blower automatically adjust its speed to meet heating or cooling demands. In cooling mode, the fan is usually always programmed on the highest speed setting, while in heating set at either medium or low. w/ a variable the in-betweens are attainable which can save some money. Most facory blower motors out there already have 3 to 4 speeds on them (most variable speeds pitches would like you to beleive they only come with one). The difference is non-variable speeds must be preprogrammed in advanced. Some variable motors are very costly and If one was included w/ the heat Pump, I can see your estimators difference in pricing. If it's a plain out $2,200 difference in cost just for the heat pump, your being taken. Last week, the wholesale differece I paid between a 3&1/2, 10 seer and a 3&1/2 14 seer was about $600 (including the xtra txv valvue at the air handler). It's installation was only minimally harder. Bryants, overall are smack in the middle from the reports I' ve read. Hope this helped.

Originally posted by gsjusi
A varialble speed blower automatically adjust its speed to meet heating or cooling demands. In cooling mode, the fan is usually always programmed on the highest speed setting, while in heating set at either medium or low. w/ a variable the in-betweens are attainable which can save some money. Most facory blower motors out there already have 3 to 4 speeds on them (most variable speeds pitches would like you to beleive they only come with one). The difference is non-variable speeds must be preprogrammed in advanced. Some variable motors are very costly and If one was included w/ the heat Pump, I can see your estimators difference in pricing. If it's a plain out $2,200 difference in cost just for the heat pump, your being taken. Last week, the wholesale differece I paid between a 3&1/2, 10 seer and a 3&1/2 14 seer was about $600 (including the xtra txv valvue at the air handler). It's installation was only minimally harder. Bryants, overall are smack in the middle from the reports I' ve read. Hope this helped.

Yes...you have been very helpfull (everyone on the bbs has!).

Well...I haven't been taken yet...I just got some estimates...he wanted $1400/ ton for the 10 seer and standard heat pump...he wanted $2300/ton for the 12 seer (he claimed that it would be a 14 seer if you combined it with the variable speed pump). Huge difference in price if you ask me...that included installation and flex conduit, condensation run. He estimated my basement at 2.5 tons (it's about 1800 sqft). All Bryant stuff.

I can't imagine that the higher seer system and variable speed system could be that much more.

I am just trying to learn as much as possible before I pull the trigger on a system.

Thanks for the info.

His, for a residential consumer quote, his 10-seer quote is actually a pretty good price. I'd be willing to go $1,200/ton for a 10 seer using a better unit (Lennox or Arco) which can be verified @ consumerreports.org. If your wanting an all around 14 seer -$1695/ton. An actual heat load calculation will determine the tonnage (scientific) you seek, but more than most likely a 2.5 would be the minimal you'd want with 3 being the max. If you really want a load calculation, call I'll do it for free.

Originally posted by gsjusi
His, for a residential consumer quote, his 10-seer quote is actually a pretty good price. I'd be willing to go $1,200/ton for a 10 seer using a better unit (Lennox or Arco) which can be verified @ consumerreports.org. If your wanting an all around 14 seer -$1695/ton. An actual heat load calculation will determine the tonnage (scientific) you seek, but more than most likely a 2.5 would be the minimal you'd want with 3 being the max. If you really want a load calculation, call I'll do it for free.

If I go with a variable speed system, will there be any drawback with going with a 3 ton vs. a 2.5?

Just the difference in cost between a 2.5 a 3 ton blower drive.

A geothermal, or ground source, heat pump may be a good option in your area. The installed cost will be higher, but operating costs should be lower. Many utilities offer a special rate for the electricity used in geothermal systems, which helps as well.

In a geothermal system, there is a series of piping run in a loop in the ground, or sometimes down a well. Liquid flowing through the piping is used to transfer heat from the heat pump to the earth. This allows it to be very efficient for cooling on hot days, and allows it to heat the home at temperatures well below what you would expect in Atlanta.

You may want to check out the following geothermal system manufacturers if you have any interest:

Florida Heat Pumps
Water Furnace
ECR Tech

Good luck to you!

Duane Roberts

you are getting very good advice here, get as many qoutes as you can and go with the guy you feel most comfortable with after checking him out. good luck