Designing Kitchens and Bathrooms - toilet installation problems

Hello,

I have nearly completely remodeling my bathroom, but I've just realized that I may problems with the toilet installation.

Problem #1:
When I installed the new tile floor, with cement wonderboard and mortar underneath, I did not carry the installation completely underneath the existing toilet flange. I have since learned from other posts in this website that the flange should be flush and secured against the finished floor level. I am unable to do this without filling the gap I left underneath. How should I handle this?

I've seen the suggestion of using cement mortar to fill this gap. This might work but how do I keep the cement from pouring down the opening around the waist pipe? Is this the best approach? What would you do?

The flange does slightly overlap the finished tile floor on one of the outer edges and it does appear to be almost flush. It may be 1/16" (or even less) too high but I can push the flange down with my hand to make in contact the tile floor, so I'm thinking that when I secure the flange, this gap will disappear.

Problem #2:
I'm planning on using the existing flange. What is supposed to keep the flange bolts from turning when you attempt to tighten the toilet base down onto them?

I saw another suggestion of using nuts to secure these bolts before placing the toilet base on. However, I'm not sure there will be enough clearance between the top of the flange and the underneath of the toilet if the toilet base is going to be flush against the tile floor. Are there are other suggestions for this?

Problem #3:
Due to settling of the house over the years, I was unable to make the floor completely level. I'm concerned that once I install the new toilet it will not be level. How important is it that the toilet be completely level in all directions? If it is important, how can I level during installation?

A lot of questions, I know, but I would be grateful for any help you can offer.

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,

Let's answer these one at a time;

FIRST THINGS FIRST - THE FLANGE IS SECURED TO THE SUBFLOOR PROPERLY? IF NOT DO SO BEFORE CONTINUING . You mentioned that you could push it down - use screws to secure it.

1. As long as the finished tile is under the toilet and close to the flange perimeter, you do not have to fill in the gap that you may see. It is not needed. The toilet rests on the perimeter of the toilet bowl - not on any part of the flange area.

2. The flange has a recessed area underneath so that when you slide your bolts into position, they prevent the bolt from turning. You will notice that the toilet bolts are oval shaped. This is so that oval locks into the groove I mentioned. Pull up on the bolt first to ensure that you have it tight against the bottom of the flange and try to turn it. It should not move. Try this and see. If it does move, you can opt for the added nut and washer and secure the bolt in the right postions when mounting your toilet bowl. Rarely does this have to be done but see what you have first. You do have room underneath the bowl to do this if needed. Look at the bottom of the toilet if you doubt what I am saying. By the way, I assume that you are getting new bolts and I would suggest that you get the longer ones 3 1/2" just in case you need them but I don't think you'll need them. I recommend a wax ring with gasket before setting toilet.

3. In situations when the toilet may not be sitting on a perfectly level floor, cedar shims work great. Slide them under the bowl so that the bowl is sitting level. Adjust them accordingly but proportionately space them, ensure that a shim is in line with your bolts if needed. THIS IS DONE WITH YOUR FLANGE BOLTS INSTALLED BUT LOOSE TO ALLOW FOR ADJUSTING THE PLUMB. When you have the bowl level, tighten your bolts but DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN - YOU MAY CRACK THE BOWL, recheck and use a utility knife to cut the shims. CUT THE BOLTS WITH A HACK SAW JUST ABOVE THE NUT AND INSTALL CAPS. (clean up the metal shavings first) Then you can apply a smooth line of caulk and this part is done. Don't forget the water supply line!

I normally install the tank to bowl first before setting the toilet. You may find it easier doing it after.

Hope this helps.

Hello Doug,

Problem #1:

NO, the flange is currently NOT secured to the subfloor. With the gap I mentioned around the flange, there is no surface to secure it to (except the subfloor about 3/4" below it). Only one of the flange screw holes has tile underneath it, the rest are above the gap I mentioned.

Should I simply screw down into the subfloor using spacers or something to fill the gap left by the absence of the tile and wonderboard? Or does this gap need to be filled in some other way?

Problem #2:

I suspected that the flange was supposed to keep the bolts from turning somehow. Unfortunately, I think the slots on this flange have softened and widened over the years because the bolts do turn.

I don't want to have to replace the flange if possible so I guess I'll try the additional washer and nut to secure the flange bolts in place.

Problem #3:

I will use the shims as you suggest. Do they have to be cedar?



Thanks again for your help. A few weeks back you helped me out with a shower stall install as well. That seems to be fine now.

I will look for you next response.

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,

Let's do it again...

1. I would screw the flange down on both sides if possible, filling this in as you suggested with grout would be OK. You just want to prevent the flange from any movement between wax ring and flange.

2. Since you don't desire to change the flange, using the extra nut and washer will be fine.

3. I use Cedar because they are cut very thin at the end, using some other type is permissable since the caulking will prevent moisture from getting under the bowl but bear in mind, the bowl may sweat and Cedar is more impervious to moisture.

I'm glad that I provided assistance to you weeks ago, it's nice to hear and thank you.


Hope this helps, if not, let me know!

Hello again Doug,

Thanks for the response.

I'm still a little uncertain what to do about the gap. You suggested "grout"... do you mean tile grout? I was thinking cement at first, but I am worried that it will all pour down below the subfloor through the waste pipe opening. Won't grout do the same? If I can slide and secure some plywood into this gap, will that work for securing the flange to?

Also, can you secure the flange directly through the ceramic tile? Do I need to just drill a pilot (or clearance) hole all the way through to the subfloor? Do I need a special drill bit for this? Special screw?

That's it I think.

Thanks,

Steve

sktracy,

Try and insert some plywood but I am unsure as to how you will secure this if there is nothing underneath it. I'm not sure were the gap is located under the bowl in relationship to the bowl outline you do not need tile under all of the bowl so if you needed to, you could try and insert your plywood where needed. You could try this and then do your concrete if you want.

I would drill through the tile and then anchor your flange. A good carbide tip drill bit will work just fine. If you have a hammer drill, this will work even better with the bit. Proper length drywall screw, with a washer is all you need.

Hope this helps!

Doug,

Sorry for not being clear. I've created a diagram of my situation that might help.

Go to this URL:

http://users.rcn.com/sktracy/

So, I'm thinking maybe I can slide in some new plywood to build up the subfloor the same level as the tile and extend underneath the flange. I can secure the new plywood to the subfloor with screws and then the flange to the new plywood.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,

Great drawing!!! With your last explanation, I assumed this is what it looked like. I am wondering about something, how much room do you have from the left side of flange to where the tile starts? Looks large...I'm not picking on you if it is not to scale..just wondering? Just want to make sure that your toilet will cover area properly.

You're idea sounds fine. Go for it!

As I said, we just want to prevent any movement between flange and toilet due to the wax ring even though a wax ring with extension gasket assists in getting the water down. I don't want any odor coming up even though caulking is used.

This should do it!

Doug,

There's maybe an 1" to 1-1/2" space from the tile to the left side of the flange. I've placed the toilet base in position and the gap is completely covered.

I'll try the plywood and see how it goes.

Thanks for your help.

Steve

Steve,

Hope all goes well...don't forget the pm e-mail I sent you, just to let you know.

Good Luck!

Doug,

"pm email" ???

Does that mean you sent an email to stephen_tracy@seton.com?

If so, can you send it again to sktracy@rcn.com?

Thanks,

Steve