Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - Furnace Question Need Advice

HEre is the story:
I am in a house which I bought recently with very noisy baseboards. The baseboards have been bled a lot, had other work done to fix them (including a Spiro Vent) and nothing gets rid of the loud COnstant noise. EVEN the Spiro Vent did not elimintate the noise.

Therefore for a quiet system that I desire, I am going to have a contractor put a furnace in the attic. I have spoken to a few contractors and gotten 2 completely different ways to do this. Please note I do have central AC, a 4 zoned heating system (1 for the upstairs) and have vents on the ceiling in each room for the existing central AC.

One way I have been told by 2 contractors that a furnace can be put in the attic is by installing a horizontal Lenox furnace which would be attached I think to the AC by an AC COil. In addition, a new flue pipre would be installed. (the contractor said he will remove the existing air handler and replace with furnace and coil. The contractor said the heat would come out of the existing AC vents. I want to keep the 2nd floor its own zone. The contractor also said that when the heat is on I would need to close the AC vents on the first floor so no Heat enters the first floor. ( I am just wondering if this still means that heat really will be going to the 1st floor and just not being allow to escape?) Two contractors recommended to do it this way and quoted 4150

The second way I have been told by another 2 contactors is to install either either a Bryant or York furnace in the attic (completerly separate from th e AC). Then new ductwork would need to be done only on the second floor. He suggested 1 new duct per room on the second floor and 2 new ducts in the bedroom. The contractor using the Bryant furnace quoted 4500 and the contractor using the YOrk furnace quoted 5700.

I would appreciate any input.

- I fully realize that baseboards are supposed to be a superior heat source but after putting over 600 in trying to fix this baseboard, I am not willing to keep putting money to fix it as no one can guarentee that what they will do will eliminate the very loud noise from the baseboards. I have been told by 2 contractors that no matter what they do to the baseboards they do not think the noise will go away so I am definitely going to get the furnace - I am just seeking advice on the furnace installation.

I realize my idea is not an ideal system but given the state of the current system and the inability to get rid of the noise, I will be putting in a furnace. Neither my wife nor I are happy with the current system and with a pregnant wife we can no longer live with merely a space heater in the room as we had done in the past.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

DODGE621:
Is this correct?
You have a two story house with noisy hot water baseboards on the second floor and airconditioning to both floors coming from the attic.
You propose to cut off the baseboards in the second floor and replace them with a new heating system installed in the attic. The existing boiler will remain to do the main floor.

Yes, the house is a two story. In addition, it has a basement. The boiler is located in the basement. The house has 4 zones of heating: 1 zone is in the basement, 2 zones are on the main floor and 1 zone is in the 2nd floor where bedrooms are located. The house also has a central air conditioning unit which is located in the attic.

I am proposing to put a furnace in the attic. THe existing boiler will remain in the basement and will continue to serve to heat both the basement and the main floor. The furnace would only heat the 2nd floor. The existing baseboards on the 2nd floor would remain in the floors but rather than use the baseboards as the 2nd floor source of heat, the furnace would be used to heat the 2nd floor.

In speaking with a few contractors, I have been given 2 different approaches.

1 approach is to install a Lennox furnace an AC COil. In addition, a new flue pipre would be installed. (the contractor said he will remove the existing air handler and replace with furnace and coil. The contractor said the heat would come out of the existing AC vents. The contractor also said that when the heat on the 2nd floor, I would need to close the AC vents on the first floor so no Heat enters the first floor.

The other approach is to install either either a Bryant or York or any other decent furnace (a downflow furnace in the attic (completerly separate from th e AC). Then new ductwork would need to be done only on the second floor. The ducts would be in the ceiling but the contractors said this would still heat up the 2nd floor well. He suggested 1 new duct per room on the second floor and 2 new ducts in the bedroom.

Yes, the house is a two story. In addition, it has a basement. The boiler is located in the basement. The house has 4 zones of heating: 1 zone is in the basement, 2 zones are on the main floor and 1 zone is in the 2nd floor where bedrooms are located. The house also has a central air conditioning unit which is located in the attic.

I am proposing to put a furnace in the attic. THe existing boiler will remain in the basement and will continue to serve to heat both the basement and the main floor. The furnace would only heat the 2nd floor. The existing baseboards on the 2nd floor would remain in the floors but rather than use the baseboards as the 2nd floor source of heat, the furnace would be used to heat the 2nd floor.

In speaking with a few contractors, I have been given 2 different approaches.

1 approach is to install a Lennox furnace an AC COil. In addition, a new flue pipre would be installed. (the contractor said he will remove the existing air handler and replace with furnace and coil. The contractor said the heat would come out of the existing AC vents. The contractor also said that when the heat on the 2nd floor, I would need to close the AC vents on the first floor so no Heat enters the first floor.

The other approach is to install either either a Bryant or York or any other decent furnace (a downflow furnace in the attic (completerly separate from th e AC). Then new ductwork would need to be done only on the second floor. The ducts would be in the ceiling but the contractors said this would still heat up the 2nd floor well. He suggested 1 new duct per room on the second floor and 2 new ducts in the bedroom.

Advice greatly appreciated

DODGE621:
In my opinion I think you would be unwise to reduce the heating load on the boiler. They work most efficiently when they are used at their full capacity. If again I understand you correctly these changes to your heating system are to take care of noisy rads.
As long as the boiler is working properly and the airconditioning is also ok, I think you may be trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.
I am not sure why you don't replace the noisy rads, or at least have the problem properly diagnosed.
One thing to consider is that you may be trading noisy rads for a noisy ventilation system.
Just this week I replaced an electric wall insert heater in our en-suite bathroom with an elctric baseboard heater. For five years I have been putting up with the incessant racket of the fan, but then I guess the shoemaker has to have the poorest shoes in town.

Thank you for the response, but I have put over 700 in to the baseboards to no avail. They have been bled several times by a contractor. a spiro vent was put in b a contractor. I have put rubber tubing in. I have been told now by more than 1 contractor there is nothing they can do to guarentee that the noise in the baseboard will go away. This is not an occassional noise. It is a constant pounding. I have spent over 700 and have not had any improvement whatsoever. Therefore, for me to keep putting new money into the baseboards has been a losing proposition. AND no contractor will guarentee any work b/c the system is probably 20 years old.

Even last year, the 2nd floor was only heated a few hours per day as it was off from the time we went to bed until the time we returned home from work, which means the boiler may have been heating the 2nd floor for 3-4 hours a day maximum.


-
If I choose to put in the furnace in the attic my question is should it be coiled to the ac or should it be set up on its own so it is not coiled to the ac?

DODGE621:
My apologies for not answering your question directly.
I feel it is my responsibility to advise people if I feel they could be headed in the wrong direction. I mean no disrespect to you or your trades, and am just giving you information that you can build on.
Answer to your specific question:
My choice of the two options you offered, would be to go with a separate unit for heating the second floor and leave the existing system alone.
If you were to install a new airhandling unit with heat and a/c coil on your existing ductwork, the air must be balanced for the airconditioning load while delivering air to both levels. When you shut off the air to the main level for heating, you will have way more air than is needed to heat the second floor. You will then have to reduce the air flow in the entire system to keep the air flow at a reasonable level for the second floor. This is not practical, and so for this reason I don't think this is the way to go.

Greg:
Thank you for your advice. I am not hoping to do this job either, but at this point I see no end to the existing problem and have chosen not to deal with it anymore. But at the same time, I have gotten extremely frustrated with contractors who do work but cannot provide any guarentee on their work.

I really doubt there is a contractor who will take me up on the offer I provide them: which is if they fix the baseboards to an acceptable level of noise where there is not constant pounding I will take their initial quote and I will double that charge or if they legitimately try to fix the problem and it does not fix the problem I will pay them $100 flat and they can disasemble any of the parts they install but do not work.

DOUBLE THE MONEY IF IT'S FIXED RIGHT!......WHAT'S YOUR ADDRESS:eek:

Maybe you can post back with all the details of your noise problem and someone can come up with an answer.
No detail is too small; boiler water pressure, water temperature, type model and age of heaters, types of zone valves, does it make the same noise if water circulates without being heated, what condition is the inside of the piping, does it make the same noise if the other zones are closed and anything else you can think of.

Hey! With the money you save and if you don't already own one, you can buy a digital camera and be able to take pics of your system and new baby.

Greg - I am in New Jersey - you are welcome to give it a try.

WIll try to elaborate further soon.

THe pounding is called "Water Hammer" . First thing to try is turn the boiler down a tad. This costs nothing. The water maybe too hot and have some steam traveling around with it.

If that doesnt work install a hammer arrester, which is really a vertical pipe in the system with air at the top. It acts like a shock absorber.

If your happy with the heat (sans noise) fix it, don't change it.

I'll be up in Union, NJ in Jan. Where are you, I'll have a weekend to play with. That is if the wife say I can.

Thanks. The temperature of the boiler is at 180. I was told today by a plumber that even though it reads 180 it could be getting even hotter than that.

- I will try to install a hammer arrester. How much does that cost approximately?


I am in Hackensack, NJ which is 25-30 minutes from Union.

DODGE621:
There really is no one proper temperature that the system is suppose to be set to, within a certain range. I have seen systems operate well within a range of 130 -195 deg.
What I would suggest you try is to turn down the water temperature about 10 deg at a time and give the system a couple of days to stabilize the house. The correct setting for your system will be the lowest temperature that will give you satisfctory temperature throughout the house and still have the boiler cycle on and off. You may find right now that the boiler cycles quite a bit because of the high capacity it has at that temperature.
Some commercial boilers use a single thermostat that has a sensor on the water temp and a sensor measuring outdoor temperature. This allows the boiler temp to constantly change in response to the heating load.

Try adjusting the temp everyother day or so. The water could be too hot. Also pick up a pocket thermometer and use some insulation tape (cheap door weather striping will do) and attach the thermometer to the hot water outlet pipe. Thias will allow you to have a second temp reading and help check the gauge installed in the boiler.

Hopefully you'll have this problem licked before January.

DODGE621:
If you don't have a pocket type thermometer, I would recommend a digital cooking thermometer. They have a 3 - 4 inch metal stem that can be taped to a supply line and a digital reading in the range you need. Some even come with a minimum/maximum memory.
My work thermometers always seem to wind up on my kitchen counter.

Greg, that's what my wife uses for meat. She even made me buy one special for her. :-)