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marturo
10-25-02, 10:06 AM
I am certian that all of you have read about the large stockpiles of Petro Chemicals God placed just outside the Garden of Eden.
We could have never made it, without these Pesticides & Heracides that were here, when man came on the scene & developed their own Toxins.
Oh BTW Stupid is uncureable :) Do they think we were born day before yesterday?
I think, I found the place called information for people, without brains. We pay these people? A lot I hear to do these studies. Well I'm glad we had Conventional Medicine from the begining or we would have died out as a species. The sharp rise in Cancer in the last 50 years, is all in our minds.
____________________________________________________
ORGANIC ALCHEMY
June 5, 2002
Reasononline
Ronald Bailey
http://194.205.233.230/cgi/NGoto/2/14485219?435
Organic farming could kill billions of people.
Organic food production is growing by leaps and bounds in the United States.
Many consumers are willing to pay premium prices for organic fruits,
vegetables, and meats, convinced that they are helping the earth and eating
healthier. Swiss scientists at the Research Institute for Organic
Agriculture have just published a 21-year study in Science comparing two
types of organic farming with two types of conventional agriculture. The
results initially seem to back up those consumer beliefs, and the press has
described the research as showing that organic farms are "viable" (to quote
the Los Angeles Times) and "more efficient" (to quote Reuters). But donıt
rush out just yet to Whole Foods to stock up on organic arugula or chard.
Organic farming boils down to essentially two principles: Soluble mineral
inputs, such as artificial nitrogen fertilizer, are forbidden, and so is the
use of synthetic herbicides and pesticides. Another of the organic systems
tested by the Swiss scientists, called bio dynamic, was dreamed up by the
German "anthroposophist" mystic Rudolf Steiner in the 1920s. Biodynamic
farming uses such novel preparations as manure fermented in a cowıs horn
that is buried in the soil for six months through autumn and winter. To
these original principles, organic farmersı organizations have recently
proscribed growing genetically enhanced crops. One of the most frequent
criticisms of organic agriculture is that it is not as productive as
conventional farming. The Swiss scientists confirmed this: Their organic
plots were on average 20 percent less productive than conventional plots.
For potatoes, organic production was about 40 percent lower. The researchers
also point out that "cereal crop yields in Europe typically are 60 to 70% of
those under conventional management." Furthermore, they dispelled the notion
that organic crops are superior food by noting, "There were minor
differences between the farming systems in food quality." The Swiss
scientists based their claims for greater organic efficiency" chiefly on the
differences in the amount of energy used to produce the crops. Since the
same horticultural techniques were used on both conventional and organic
plots, the difference in energy use was mostly the result of counting the
energy used to produce inorganic fertilizers and pesticides. On this basis,
the researchers claim in their Science article that organic farms use about
50 percent less energy. However, looking at the fine print, one discovers
that "since crop yields were considerably higher in the conventional
systems, the difference in energy needed to produce a crop unit was only 19
percent lower in the organic systems." Secondly, the researchers declare
that they found nutrients "in the organic systems to be 34 to 51% lower than
in conventional systems, whereas mean crop yield was only 20% lower over a
period of 21 years." But--to ask the organic advocatesı own question- is
organic agriculture sustainable over the long run? Again, the fine print
says no. As their research confirms, organic farming is mining the soil of
its vital minerals, particularly phosphorus and potassium. Eventually, as
these minerals are used up, organic crop production will fall below its
already low level. Conventional farming, on the other hand, restores mineral
balances through fertilization. "The Swiss researchers are not thinking
globally, theyıre only acting locally," says Alex Avery, director of
research for the Hudson Instituteıs Center for Global Food Issues. Avery
points out that organic farming can supply food for niche markets of
affluent consumers but cannot feed a hungry world. Other methods of food
production can. In his new book Enriching the Earth, the University of
Manitoba agronomist Vaclav Smil credits the Haber-Bosch method of producing
nitrogen fertilizer, invented in 1909, with sustaining two billion people
today. Synthetic fertilizers now supply 40 percent of all the nitrogen used
by crop plants. Without this artificially produced fertilizer, farmers would
simply not be able to grow the crops necessary to feed the worldıs
population. Organic sources of nitrogen, such as animal manure and
leguminous plants, would supply only about a quarter of the nitrogen needed.
(The remainder comes from rain and lightening.) Other inventions, such as
high-yielding crop varieties and modern farm equipment, have also been vital
to boosting food supplies. For example, when farm tractors arrived after the
1920s, they replaced draft animals that consumed a quarter of the crops
grown in the United States. Keep in mind that plants cannot tell the
difference between "natural" sources of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium
and "artificial" sources of those elements. The reason is that there is no
difference, outside the minds of organic farmers. The Swiss researchers did
find some true benefits from organic farming, including greater water
retention by the soil and a higher presence of beneficial insects.
Unfortunately, they did not test their organic systems against the newest
form of conventional agriculture, no-till farming combined with genetically
enhanced crops. This uses much less energy and less pesticides than the
old-fashioned systems examined by the Swiss scientists. Since no-till
farmers donıt plow, their tractors use less fuel. Also, since weed control
is achieved using environmentally benign herbicides instead of mechanical
removal through plowing, even more fuel is saved. Finally, no-till farmers
use less insecticide, since genetically enhanced crops can protect
themselves against pests. Against all this, organic farmingıs 19 percent
energy advantage would likely disappear. No-till farming matches several
other advantages of organic agriculture as well. Both methods offer improved
soil structure, more water retention, greatly reduced soil erosion, less
pesticide and fertilizer runoff, and a higher presence of beneficial
insects. Although organic farmers refuse to see it, switching to genetically
enhanced crops would go a long way toward accomplishing their avowed goals
of restoring their land and helping the natural environment. One final
argument often offered by organic enthusiasts is that organic farming is
more profitable. Of course, the reason organic foods command a premium at
supermarkets is that so many consumers have been bamboozled into thinking
that they are somehow superior. If organic farming became widespread, that
premium would dissipate and take its higher profitability with it. As the
Cambridge chemist John Emsley recently concluded, "The greatest catastrophe
that the human race could face this century is not global warming but a
global conversion to organic farmingı--an estimated 2 billion people would
perish." News reports may hail the Swiss study as proving that organic
farming is sustainable, but it actually did the opposite. Ronald Bailey is
Reason's science correspondent and the editor of Earth Report 2000:
Revisiting the True State of the Planet(McGraw-Hill)
THE GOOD SIDE OF GM REVEALED
June 2, 2002
The Scotsman
We could have never made it, without these Pesticides & Heracides that were here, when man came on the scene & developed their own Toxins.
Oh BTW Stupid is uncureable :) Do they think we were born day before yesterday?
I think, I found the place called information for people, without brains. We pay these people? A lot I hear to do these studies. Well I'm glad we had Conventional Medicine from the begining or we would have died out as a species. The sharp rise in Cancer in the last 50 years, is all in our minds.
____________________________________________________
ORGANIC ALCHEMY
June 5, 2002
Reasononline
Ronald Bailey
http://194.205.233.230/cgi/NGoto/2/14485219?435
Organic farming could kill billions of people.
Organic food production is growing by leaps and bounds in the United States.
Many consumers are willing to pay premium prices for organic fruits,
vegetables, and meats, convinced that they are helping the earth and eating
healthier. Swiss scientists at the Research Institute for Organic
Agriculture have just published a 21-year study in Science comparing two
types of organic farming with two types of conventional agriculture. The
results initially seem to back up those consumer beliefs, and the press has
described the research as showing that organic farms are "viable" (to quote
the Los Angeles Times) and "more efficient" (to quote Reuters). But donıt
rush out just yet to Whole Foods to stock up on organic arugula or chard.
Organic farming boils down to essentially two principles: Soluble mineral
inputs, such as artificial nitrogen fertilizer, are forbidden, and so is the
use of synthetic herbicides and pesticides. Another of the organic systems
tested by the Swiss scientists, called bio dynamic, was dreamed up by the
German "anthroposophist" mystic Rudolf Steiner in the 1920s. Biodynamic
farming uses such novel preparations as manure fermented in a cowıs horn
that is buried in the soil for six months through autumn and winter. To
these original principles, organic farmersı organizations have recently
proscribed growing genetically enhanced crops. One of the most frequent
criticisms of organic agriculture is that it is not as productive as
conventional farming. The Swiss scientists confirmed this: Their organic
plots were on average 20 percent less productive than conventional plots.
For potatoes, organic production was about 40 percent lower. The researchers
also point out that "cereal crop yields in Europe typically are 60 to 70% of
those under conventional management." Furthermore, they dispelled the notion
that organic crops are superior food by noting, "There were minor
differences between the farming systems in food quality." The Swiss
scientists based their claims for greater organic efficiency" chiefly on the
differences in the amount of energy used to produce the crops. Since the
same horticultural techniques were used on both conventional and organic
plots, the difference in energy use was mostly the result of counting the
energy used to produce inorganic fertilizers and pesticides. On this basis,
the researchers claim in their Science article that organic farms use about
50 percent less energy. However, looking at the fine print, one discovers
that "since crop yields were considerably higher in the conventional
systems, the difference in energy needed to produce a crop unit was only 19
percent lower in the organic systems." Secondly, the researchers declare
that they found nutrients "in the organic systems to be 34 to 51% lower than
in conventional systems, whereas mean crop yield was only 20% lower over a
period of 21 years." But--to ask the organic advocatesı own question- is
organic agriculture sustainable over the long run? Again, the fine print
says no. As their research confirms, organic farming is mining the soil of
its vital minerals, particularly phosphorus and potassium. Eventually, as
these minerals are used up, organic crop production will fall below its
already low level. Conventional farming, on the other hand, restores mineral
balances through fertilization. "The Swiss researchers are not thinking
globally, theyıre only acting locally," says Alex Avery, director of
research for the Hudson Instituteıs Center for Global Food Issues. Avery
points out that organic farming can supply food for niche markets of
affluent consumers but cannot feed a hungry world. Other methods of food
production can. In his new book Enriching the Earth, the University of
Manitoba agronomist Vaclav Smil credits the Haber-Bosch method of producing
nitrogen fertilizer, invented in 1909, with sustaining two billion people
today. Synthetic fertilizers now supply 40 percent of all the nitrogen used
by crop plants. Without this artificially produced fertilizer, farmers would
simply not be able to grow the crops necessary to feed the worldıs
population. Organic sources of nitrogen, such as animal manure and
leguminous plants, would supply only about a quarter of the nitrogen needed.
(The remainder comes from rain and lightening.) Other inventions, such as
high-yielding crop varieties and modern farm equipment, have also been vital
to boosting food supplies. For example, when farm tractors arrived after the
1920s, they replaced draft animals that consumed a quarter of the crops
grown in the United States. Keep in mind that plants cannot tell the
difference between "natural" sources of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium
and "artificial" sources of those elements. The reason is that there is no
difference, outside the minds of organic farmers. The Swiss researchers did
find some true benefits from organic farming, including greater water
retention by the soil and a higher presence of beneficial insects.
Unfortunately, they did not test their organic systems against the newest
form of conventional agriculture, no-till farming combined with genetically
enhanced crops. This uses much less energy and less pesticides than the
old-fashioned systems examined by the Swiss scientists. Since no-till
farmers donıt plow, their tractors use less fuel. Also, since weed control
is achieved using environmentally benign herbicides instead of mechanical
removal through plowing, even more fuel is saved. Finally, no-till farmers
use less insecticide, since genetically enhanced crops can protect
themselves against pests. Against all this, organic farmingıs 19 percent
energy advantage would likely disappear. No-till farming matches several
other advantages of organic agriculture as well. Both methods offer improved
soil structure, more water retention, greatly reduced soil erosion, less
pesticide and fertilizer runoff, and a higher presence of beneficial
insects. Although organic farmers refuse to see it, switching to genetically
enhanced crops would go a long way toward accomplishing their avowed goals
of restoring their land and helping the natural environment. One final
argument often offered by organic enthusiasts is that organic farming is
more profitable. Of course, the reason organic foods command a premium at
supermarkets is that so many consumers have been bamboozled into thinking
that they are somehow superior. If organic farming became widespread, that
premium would dissipate and take its higher profitability with it. As the
Cambridge chemist John Emsley recently concluded, "The greatest catastrophe
that the human race could face this century is not global warming but a
global conversion to organic farmingı--an estimated 2 billion people would
perish." News reports may hail the Swiss study as proving that organic
farming is sustainable, but it actually did the opposite. Ronald Bailey is
Reason's science correspondent and the editor of Earth Report 2000:
Revisiting the True State of the Planet(McGraw-Hill)
THE GOOD SIDE OF GM REVEALED
June 2, 2002
The Scotsman
JudyRoyal
10-28-02, 10:19 AM
Excellent commentary!
I have very little to add, except that if people realized that plants can only utilize nutrients in an ionic state, they'd know that there is virually no difference in produce grown with organic or chemical fertilizers.
The only advantage I've found to organic fertilizers is that they add humus to the soil, which is helpful to plants.
I have very little to add, except that if people realized that plants can only utilize nutrients in an ionic state, they'd know that there is virually no difference in produce grown with organic or chemical fertilizers.
The only advantage I've found to organic fertilizers is that they add humus to the soil, which is helpful to plants.
marturo
10-28-02, 12:53 PM
Hello JudyRoyal, & Welcome to the DIY Garden Forum :)
Yes I have seen the remarkable difference in my soil & the white salt covered soils, of the once black humus filled soil of just 20 years ago in Henderson County. Some Conventional Farmers are using Winter cover crops once again, due to increased education among the Farming community.
I won't argue with you, as we both have made our minds up over many decades, so feel free to present your points & I will present mine. Without different points of view, we only stagnate.
In the end all that matters is the people & what they choose to buy. Organic Produce sales remain strong, as conventional markets like Japan, continue to dry up. Cuba has decided to buy our NC Apples & that could save many of our farmers, as well as a new Apple spray called Surround.
Thank you for your input it is indeed a shame, you have so little to add. We all continue to learn & just because I disagree with you on salt based plant food, does not mean, I did not study the history of agriculture & the need for Chemicals & salt based plant food in the past.
In past man did starve, due to animal & insect predation, so we needed petrochemicals & in order to produce more food. We also needed a source of food for plants, that would provide faster availability, than Organic non composted mater could provide.
Many changes have happened in both conventional & Organic forms of Farming, in just the last 2 decades. The purpose of food production, should be to feed people, without making the people or the Earth sick. I believe we can both agree on that.
Thank you for your post, please don't feel you are not welcome here. A one dementional view helps no one, better to shoot for a 3D view, in order to find the ways for the future of all Mankind. An open mind is a learning mind, while a closed mind :( knows all that person will ever need, in the here & now.
Marturo
Yes I have seen the remarkable difference in my soil & the white salt covered soils, of the once black humus filled soil of just 20 years ago in Henderson County. Some Conventional Farmers are using Winter cover crops once again, due to increased education among the Farming community.
I won't argue with you, as we both have made our minds up over many decades, so feel free to present your points & I will present mine. Without different points of view, we only stagnate.
In the end all that matters is the people & what they choose to buy. Organic Produce sales remain strong, as conventional markets like Japan, continue to dry up. Cuba has decided to buy our NC Apples & that could save many of our farmers, as well as a new Apple spray called Surround.
Thank you for your input it is indeed a shame, you have so little to add. We all continue to learn & just because I disagree with you on salt based plant food, does not mean, I did not study the history of agriculture & the need for Chemicals & salt based plant food in the past.
In past man did starve, due to animal & insect predation, so we needed petrochemicals & in order to produce more food. We also needed a source of food for plants, that would provide faster availability, than Organic non composted mater could provide.
Many changes have happened in both conventional & Organic forms of Farming, in just the last 2 decades. The purpose of food production, should be to feed people, without making the people or the Earth sick. I believe we can both agree on that.
Thank you for your post, please don't feel you are not welcome here. A one dementional view helps no one, better to shoot for a 3D view, in order to find the ways for the future of all Mankind. An open mind is a learning mind, while a closed mind :( knows all that person will ever need, in the here & now.
Marturo
JudyRoyal
10-28-02, 01:38 PM
Maturo:
Basically, all my gardening is organic. I've had an almost unlimited supply of rotted horse manure, wood ash, and rotted sawdust, which are great soil amendments as well as fertilizer. It simply wouldn't make sense for me to buy fertilizer. I do use RoundUp and Treflan for weed control--very necessary when using a lot of manure!--and Malathion and Sevin for bugs. I can most of what I use, so don't need to be personally concerned about commercial growers, organic or chemical.
I just think that consumers are being misled into believing that chemically fertilized produce is somehow harmful...
Regardless of what fertilizers are used, crop rotation would be very beneficial to the soil. The farm across the street from me has been in corn and soybeans for over 20 years!
Thanks for the compliment on Cain, the dog in the picture!
Basically, all my gardening is organic. I've had an almost unlimited supply of rotted horse manure, wood ash, and rotted sawdust, which are great soil amendments as well as fertilizer. It simply wouldn't make sense for me to buy fertilizer. I do use RoundUp and Treflan for weed control--very necessary when using a lot of manure!--and Malathion and Sevin for bugs. I can most of what I use, so don't need to be personally concerned about commercial growers, organic or chemical.
I just think that consumers are being misled into believing that chemically fertilized produce is somehow harmful...
Regardless of what fertilizers are used, crop rotation would be very beneficial to the soil. The farm across the street from me has been in corn and soybeans for over 20 years!
Thanks for the compliment on Cain, the dog in the picture!
marturo
10-28-02, 05:42 PM
Hello Judy,
Judy Said:
(Thanks for the compliment on Cain, the dog in the picture!)
Your welcome, I have a real love of well bred dogs. My 2 Goldens were from the Misty Morn Sunset line, & lived to be 13.
We & I use the term, to include my team mates, Linda my Wife & Zac my Son whom, are the, owners of the Lucky Horseshoe Farm.
Linda & I have been Farming, totaly Organic since 1972 & Zac has beem growing & learning for 20 out of 25 years.
We use Viniger + Citric acid instead of, Round up.
Rotetnone & Pyrithum in place of, Malathion and Sevin
We are Earth Friendly Farmers Once up on a time AKA Organic. Earth Friendly Farmers/Produce is a term used by us who like many true Organic Farmers, have had to find, new names to get the point across, as to how we farm.
We like many other Organic Farms do not want anything to do with the USDA, & a $10,000 fine & 1 year imprisionment for using their word ( Organic ). Neither will we be certified by them, as many small farms read between the lines of their new rules, that favor the Giant Agribusiness Complex.
We grow Antique & Heirloom Fruit & Vegetables for ourselves & Produce Sales.
A new product came on the market called Sluggo, it does not trap slugs as we did before. Sluggo Kills slugs within 5 days, & stops all feeding in 1 hour after ingestion. It is nontoxic, & is a componet of bread making and plant food. Another new weapon in a new & improved Organic alternative arsenal.
What we are seeing with products like Sluggo & the new fruit tree spray Surround, is a release of technology, following a huge demand by Growers looking for, & willing to pay for Organic Insect & pest controls.
I believe that one reason that Organic produce had to cost so much, was pure economics. More work = higher costs of doing business = high prices.
With products like sluggo, we can sprinkle some pellets around the plants & reapply in 2 weeks, regardless of rain or dry. Beer traps are tended every 3 days & night hand picking took far more time than sprinkle & forget.
The Fruit tree spray Surround is said to replace at least 7 Fungisides, pesticides, protective agents. For us it will allow us the first Fungiside other than a very limited Copper Sulfate, Lime & Sulfer spray.
At the rate these new Organic Tools are coming on the market, the Organic farmer will be on a level playing field, for the first time since Organic was used, to describe a Farming choice.
Take for instance Catapilars ( Worms ) both Malathion and Sevin are not as effective, as Dipel the choice of both Conventional & Organic Farmers.
Salt based plant food in the right numbers, is not bad for people or plants, 5-10-10 is a good choice for growing plants where fruit production is what is wanted.
It is when the salt based plant food is used for Farming, without cover crops or the addition of things like, Kelp meal & other micronutrient rich suppliments, that it can cause a dead soil condition.
The article is but 1 part of a 5 part study showing the side that folks like Monsanto, want you to believe about their Genetic manupulation of or most precious asset, Food for Humans.
This is but only one of the many articles written, to fool the consumer into buying into the very little understood science of, Genetic engineering of our food supply.
The belief of or against the use of using salt based plant food, over Compost & many other supplements used in growing food plants, in comparison to this new & very dangerious science of, using DNA to interfere with the natural evolution, of plant life on our planet.
Marturo
Judy Said:
(Thanks for the compliment on Cain, the dog in the picture!)
Your welcome, I have a real love of well bred dogs. My 2 Goldens were from the Misty Morn Sunset line, & lived to be 13.
We & I use the term, to include my team mates, Linda my Wife & Zac my Son whom, are the, owners of the Lucky Horseshoe Farm.
Linda & I have been Farming, totaly Organic since 1972 & Zac has beem growing & learning for 20 out of 25 years.
We use Viniger + Citric acid instead of, Round up.
Rotetnone & Pyrithum in place of, Malathion and Sevin
We are Earth Friendly Farmers Once up on a time AKA Organic. Earth Friendly Farmers/Produce is a term used by us who like many true Organic Farmers, have had to find, new names to get the point across, as to how we farm.
We like many other Organic Farms do not want anything to do with the USDA, & a $10,000 fine & 1 year imprisionment for using their word ( Organic ). Neither will we be certified by them, as many small farms read between the lines of their new rules, that favor the Giant Agribusiness Complex.
We grow Antique & Heirloom Fruit & Vegetables for ourselves & Produce Sales.
A new product came on the market called Sluggo, it does not trap slugs as we did before. Sluggo Kills slugs within 5 days, & stops all feeding in 1 hour after ingestion. It is nontoxic, & is a componet of bread making and plant food. Another new weapon in a new & improved Organic alternative arsenal.
What we are seeing with products like Sluggo & the new fruit tree spray Surround, is a release of technology, following a huge demand by Growers looking for, & willing to pay for Organic Insect & pest controls.
I believe that one reason that Organic produce had to cost so much, was pure economics. More work = higher costs of doing business = high prices.
With products like sluggo, we can sprinkle some pellets around the plants & reapply in 2 weeks, regardless of rain or dry. Beer traps are tended every 3 days & night hand picking took far more time than sprinkle & forget.
The Fruit tree spray Surround is said to replace at least 7 Fungisides, pesticides, protective agents. For us it will allow us the first Fungiside other than a very limited Copper Sulfate, Lime & Sulfer spray.
At the rate these new Organic Tools are coming on the market, the Organic farmer will be on a level playing field, for the first time since Organic was used, to describe a Farming choice.
Take for instance Catapilars ( Worms ) both Malathion and Sevin are not as effective, as Dipel the choice of both Conventional & Organic Farmers.
Salt based plant food in the right numbers, is not bad for people or plants, 5-10-10 is a good choice for growing plants where fruit production is what is wanted.
It is when the salt based plant food is used for Farming, without cover crops or the addition of things like, Kelp meal & other micronutrient rich suppliments, that it can cause a dead soil condition.
The article is but 1 part of a 5 part study showing the side that folks like Monsanto, want you to believe about their Genetic manupulation of or most precious asset, Food for Humans.
This is but only one of the many articles written, to fool the consumer into buying into the very little understood science of, Genetic engineering of our food supply.
The belief of or against the use of using salt based plant food, over Compost & many other supplements used in growing food plants, in comparison to this new & very dangerious science of, using DNA to interfere with the natural evolution, of plant life on our planet.
Marturo